INSIDEOWL: The Anusarian and the Ashtangi

The Anusarian and the Ashtangi · 14 July 2008

Excerpts from an exchange I’ve been conducting with Dale, an Anusana practitioner in Austin, over the last couple of weeks. Chez Liz.

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DALE: My "moon days" in the sense of adventure and release from tension that you project are -- most days. Most days I have the wonderful freedom and opportunity of being able to choose what kind of yoga I do. And I find the same sense of unleashed adventurous joy in that as you obviously do when unchained from the work for a day.

Obviously, I'm not very dedicated :-).

Have you thought about tasting a different style of yoga on your off days/Saturdays?

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(0v0): I'm not sure about yoga “tastings”? A little anusara, for example, does taste nice in terms of sensation, but if it were just about the feeling in my body... um... for me that is not what it is about. When I choose every day what yoga to do, the mind takes over and has a field day. :)

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DALE: Well, it's quite true that I'm not a dedicated Ashtangi :-). I last had a stable practice schedule 4 or 5 weeks ago, but at that time I was doing 1st series or a half-primary 2 or 3 times a week, 2nd series once or twice a week, Shiva Rea vinyassa a couple times a week, and sprinkling in a few flow classes.

Wow!! How dedicated! NOT. I am about as dedicated to yoga as I am to chocolate (mmmmmmm, chocolate). In reality I am merely as bad a glutton for yoga as I am for chocolate (mmmmm, chocolate).

So when I sound like I'm "try[ing] to show [you] all the real way," it's just like saying "I know you like Baby Ruth, but dude! try a Snickers."

I practiced all last week at a Baron Baptiste studio. It was alot of fun - nothing earth-shaking, but I learned some different ways to put flows together. And practicing in a 90F room was interesting. It was enough to keep me from losing heat, but not so much that I felt like I was being heated from the outside. I think that the external heat did contribute to some overwork that I did (& made me painfully sore), but I've done similar things in unheated practices, so I can't blame the room. Fun! You ought to try it (or not :-). Because it is fun! Fun celebrates the unquenchable joy of the Divine. Go grab a blue cowboy and dance!!

And yeah, I think that it would be a good idea for everyone to try some other yoga activities. Why just do the same set of poses, in the same order all the time [rhetorical question...].

Is it ok for an Ashtangi to lift weights? How about go for a bike ride? Ok to do aerobics? To go dancing? To take a different style of yoga class? To swim or run?

If one of these is not like the others, why??? Why would swimming be ok for an Ashtangi, but not a Baron Baptiste vinyassa class?

You mentioned my love affair with Anusara. Well, it goes beyond that. I have become an Anusari in the fundamental sense - I do everything in the Anusara style. Vinyassa, Ashtanga, lifting weights, whatever - I do it all in the Anusara style. I actually do very few Anusara classes anymore, because I'm having too much fun doing various styles or vinyassa these days. But the heart of Anusara isn't any particular sequence or activity or set of poses. The heart of Anusara is a way of doing - a way of being and a way of doing. So when I do vinyassa or Ashtanga or Shiva Rea or whatever, I do it in the Anusara way. Whatever I am doing with my body, the principles of alignment apply, and the mental/spiritual/emotional practices apply.

I wonder if there is a heart of Ashtanga that transcends which series you are working on, or whether you are practicing Mysore or in led classes. To me, the heart of Ashtanga might be something like maintaining the integrity of the breath and the breath-movement connection. I think that Ashtanga also teaches patience, nonGrasping, truthfulness, meditative mind, and the magic of "rinsing the spine," as your teacher describes it :-).

Could you swim or run in the Ashtanga way? Certainly. My swimming would have as its goal proper breathing, and then adjusting my swimming motions to be maximally in tune with my breathing. I would swim with the intention of mastering the form, but without grasping for the outcome - after all, if I just practice my swimming, all will come.

And can you practice freestyle vinyassa in the Ashtanga way? Why not?

Oh, and I don't hate Ashtanga. Remember that I've been practicing Ashtanga on & off for about 6 years. I got totally bored with primary series for a long time. But about a year ago, I started working on second series, and eventually that get me started back doing primary occasionally. But this time primary is fun, because I do it with specific things that I want to work on in order to improve my second series work.

Next in the Ashtanga realm, I think I'll tart working on The Rocket. It doesn't depend on increasing your flexibility in certain ways like 3rd series does, and it emphasizes strength and agility. And it looks like a blast :-).

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(0v0): Cool comment. I think you're on to something with your insight into the different dispositions of different schools.

Is it accurate to say, following the chocolate metaphor and your earlier comments on tasting, that your practice focuses on enjoying the sensations in the body? There's attention to the delights of the senses (and embodied experience) and the beauty of symmetry? There's attention to dileating a path to joy?

These are valid principles for sure. Ashtanga's personality is something different. Hmm.

Maybe I'll try to write about this later.

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DALE: Interesting.

Yes, I practice purely for the love of the practice. I enjoy the physical, mental, and spiritual aspects of the practice, but I do not practice for any other reason than that I groove on it.

Considering yoga, if you practice because you love the practice, then you need look no further for the reasons that you spend so much valuable time and energy on it. Your desires and actions are aligned.

But let's say that practicing is not your most favorite thing, or even one of your top 10 favorite things. Then why practice? As David Swenson says, "It's only yoga."

Perhaps it is to achieve some healthy physical or psychological results: losing weight or gaining strength or a better range of motion or better balance or concentration or stress relief. Cool !!

Maybe it is training yourself to overcome difficult obstacles, to persevere, to see yourself physical capabilities clearly, accept yourself utterly, and then make improvements in a determined yet nonHarming way. Groovy!!

Or maybe your practice is like sitting meditation in Zen - you do not practice with any expectation, but only because you know that it is good for you. I can't argue with that.

Or maybe you practice in order to have some sort of religious or ecstatic experience, like the dervishes. Well, that's alot healthier than peyote :-).

And if you practice as a religious discipline, that's wonderful, too. I think that a person's religion is their business, and as long as their religion doesn't tend to make them mean people, I think it's wonderful.

If you want to say that Ashtanga's personality is different from enjoying the practice, then consider this - is there a standard & necessary motive for practicing Ashtanga? If someone has a different motive or a different experience in the practice, then are they doing it wrong? Is it no longer Ashtanga? Is Swenson wrong when he says that it is only yoga?

I think that one can practice for many reasons, and have a variety of different experiences, and still be doing great yoga. I have students who are growing in their yoga, students who want to get stronger/faster/better, students who are trying to age more gracefully, students who are recovering from breast cancer and need to accept themselves more completely, students who just want to have a good sweaty time, and students who come to class for the companionship. Who is wrong & who is right? Maybe each person's practice has their own personality.

I do not see a fundamental difference between Ashtanga asana practice and other yoga asana practice. In fact, I do not see a fundamentat difference between traditional asana practice, and applying those same principles to running, swimming, or basketball. Each of these can be practiced using the same principles that illuminate our asana practice.

So - why do you practice? Is it a mixture of "love it" and doing it for other reasons? How is your experience of Ashtanga practice different from other yogas?

What do you think of the idea of doing other things in your life in the same way that we do asana?

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(0v0): Dale, Thank you for thinking through this with me.

I wonder if your idea of “enjoyment”—defined as being “my favorite thing to do” and something that “tastes good” and associated with sampling/tasting varieties, and physical feeling-good, and understood as being intrinsically self-legitimating according to a “do what feels good” ethos—is particularly tied to the ethos not of living life to the fullest but of consumerism.

The metaphor of eating connects to a larger sense of pursuing happiness through inputs of sense experience. There’s a lot of mental fluctuation in the sense-seeking, chocolate-savoring, variety-loving practice you describe. Which is great fun, but what’s this really doing to the mind? (Perhaps the character of practice you describe is oriented to pleasing the mind, whereas my own orients to quieting it.)

What you describe are wonderful immanent joys, but are they transcendent? Do they connect you to the peace that passeth understanding? (What is their relationship to the fifth-eighth limbs of yoga—or are these not a part of Anusara’s personality?)

That said, I am intrigued by your implicit argument that Anusara-style practice is an end in itself. That’s sweet. It can be done for any apparent “motive” but is a whole experience in and of itself. I wish I had an interesting or noble answer for my own motivations for practice—moral improvement, increasing my love, knowledge of reality. These are real side effects of any devotional practice, but if the reason I get on my mat every morning is a combination of love and inertia.

I dunno. What I can tell you is that every morning my sweetheart asks me, “How was your practice today?” And I often have to say say, year in year out of my routinized and not always physically blissful ashtanga life, “Amazing. It was the best practice EVER.”

Each day is different, in content if not in form. Because I hold the form constant (which many would expect to be boring if they hadn’t tried it for a while), I’m able to observe/experience my self—breath, subtle body, mental states, and more than anything the increasingly accessible edges of my unconscious mind—with a pretty crazy level of subtlety.

Is that possible in any physical activity? Maybe. You can do mindfulness practice in a lot of contexts. (There is a difference between saying “it’s only yoga” and “it’s only asana”—I believe you mean the latter.) But I find certain pretty special rarefied states of consciousness are possible when you combine mindfulness with vinyasa and the extreme kinds of nerve-cleansing that this method particularly brings. Ice hockey or flower arranging or most asana will not necessarily work the subtle and emotional bodies quite to the brink in the same revealing, wonderful way, even if we want to say—ever so nondualistically—that all methods are the same. Maybe that’s fine. Ultimately, it’s only chitta vritti nirodaha.

When I say today was the best practice ever, this does not always mean that practice has been gratifying. Sometimes it’s taken me to the places that scare me; usually I’ve cultivated too deep a state of trance to register “fun” or any delight in my own physical capacity; sometimes I’ve practiced with colleagues who are actively, deeply suffering on their mats beside me. The joy is about something other that the more sense-oriented idea of fun. It may even be tinged with sorrow, and always contains a sense of my own smallness in the greater scheme of things. It’s actually really humbling to devote yourself to a routine in this way, and just let the routine take over. It’s not about what I can do or achieve; this is why ashtangis sometimes say the yoga does us rather than we it.

Though in fairness, I have to admit that part of my delight in practice IS purely immanent: because I do the exact same thing every single day, over time my body has become somewhat gravity-defying, open, and strong. You don’t get to practice intermediate or advanced ashtanga if you approach practice as a sampler or “achiever,” but only by just giving yourself over to the routine. Sampling this practice leads to suffering and injury—it’s just too difficult otherwise, and I’ve seen a lot of people torture themselves with inconsistent practice. The method only really opens you up to the degree you are fully capable if you follow it every day for years, and even then only if you’re lucky enough to have a healthy body and avoid serious injuries on the way. Maybe that’s really boring. Maybe ashtangis are boring people. The kickback is an indescribable chemical cocktail—especially from the crazy backbending while riding the breath—that no other physical experience I know can touch. You don’t get that kind of experience by sampling, just because so much is required in terms of skill and physical development that you must have a super-intelligent, repetitious method.

And even that passes. The crazy thing is that, as this practice passes in to its third generation and we see the first wave of American teachers do intense physical practice into their sixties and the living “guru” of the system turn 93 this week, it’s becoming pretty clear that the outgrowth of this practice is that joy becomes independent of sense-based physical enjoyment.

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Categories: arbitrage , astanga yoga , beta state , having a body , integration

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Comment

It’s nice to do just things that feel good and maybe feel ‘right’ for a particular moment. If we only ever do what feels right at any given time, however, we’ll stay stuck in the moments we experience. There are many unexpected delights that are to be enjoyed, but that don’t surface until after much relentless work is invested.

Posted by: Carl · Jul 14, 11:36 AM · #
Premature tantrika: USELESS.

Might as well eat a large pizza, watch Tivo for 8 hours straight and flush it down with a 6 pack of Budlight and call it “practice” (of delusion)

Posted by: es&j · Jul 14, 12:52 PM · #
Thanks.

The premie-tantrika/false nondualism thing is getting a lot of play these days. Similar but not exactly to the angry people preaching fake Advaita on the internet.

I am trying to figure out a way to talk to it, even though proponents usually (“nondualistically”) deny practice and deny that mind and body are interdependent fields—either by denying the mind (Dale) or denying the body (Zee).

It’s a mostly incoherent standpoint but there’s a lot of petulant-child energy here. Which, oddly, makes me want to scratch it behind the ears and give it a piece of candy.

Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 14, 01:21 PM · #
Hear, hear! Carl!

Posted by: Liz · Jul 14, 05:09 PM · #
Ugh. Anusara. What a bunch of show offs. I practiced with a teacher who was an ashtangi and then turned anusarist. She said she never felt good enough when she practiced ashtanga, she never felt special. She was at times unhappy. Until she met Mr. Friend. Now she’s happy all the time. It’s the happy happy our bodies ourselves cult. I have never met a bunch of people more concerned with the postures and how beautiful they were doing it. The intensives are like a big circle jerk. Oh! Looka her! Lookie him! Weeeee!

Yoga is not about feeling good and doing all the fun postures. How could it be? Do the Sutras tell us to find your bliss? Hmm. I’m pretty sure I read that to practice yoga only for the pleasures it provides is called yoga bhoga, and that is not real yoga. Just like the “special powers” that yogis are said to aquire, you are not supposed to hold on to that. Yoga is not about finding happiness and trying to make it permanent. We’re supposed to get to the point where we see the whole picture, to understand consciousness. It’s about learning that we are no more or less special than those who eat a large pizza, watch tivo and drink a 6 pack of Budlight.

And don’t even get me started on those fake Advaitist punk ass children….preacher, snake oil salesmen..Self obssesed…ugh.

Can you scratch behind my ears and give me a candy too?

Posted by: Susan · Jul 14, 06:13 PM · #
Interesting topic.

Well, I don’t want to speak for Anusarians, as I’ve only taken a few classes that were taught by Anusara trained teachers;

And I don’t want to speak for Ashtangis, as I frequently skip and mod the sequence and barely get to class. Not to mention my not-so-secret love of Mr. Baptiste (Hi Liz!)

But it appears to me that Ashtangis WORK at asana with faith that it’ll be a worthwhile endeavor and Anusarians PLAY at asana secure in the knowledge that they’ll enjoy it in the moment.

Either way, I’m not so sure that I could apply favorite asana practice techniques to everyday activities. The heavy breathing might freak out the regular folks!

Posted by: cody · Jul 14, 06:15 PM · #
Cody, maybe you need a photo of Baron AND John Friend by your bedside! ha!! no, really, do you really love Baron? I might have to investigate this on your blog. Maybe I haven’t dug deep enough to find your dark secrets. (by the way, I’ve done ujjayi breath at the Post Office)

Posted by: Liz · Jul 14, 07:27 PM · #
However, my philosophy has no connection with Anusara: it is my own. My asana practice is Anusara, with flavorings from other traditions – my Ashtanga teachers seems to know the most about moving powerfully with safety and my Shiva Rea teacher brought me the freedom to dance every asana.

It is wonderful to hear the fierce devotion that flows through your words :). Your dedication to the persuit of the Divine through 8-limb Yoga is inspiring and challenging.

I should digress here for a moment. I am a Christian (xtn) theologian (of absolutely no repute :) and student of Church history. And of course, a stone dualist :). So I practice yoga with fundamentally different goals, expectations, hopes, motivations, and worldview than a nonDualist. I am not working toward Samadhi, because xtns have a different way of expressing and practicing our fellowship with the Divine, and we have a completely different view of the cycle of life.

My devotional spiritual practices are expressive praise&worship, meditative prayer & study of the xtn scriptures, and my spiritual disciplines are typical varieties of serving man as a way of serving God. So my yoga practice is neither a spiritual practice or discipline to me – it is recreation, and it has lots of benefits that apply to my physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual health.

Understanding the radical difference in the context of our practices….

My view of my practice as fun is simply Zen. The thirsty man needs no further justification for drinking, nor the hungry man for eating, nor me for practicing – it is fun, so I do it. One of the deeper xtn saints expressed our duty to others in this way – “In all things, love. Otherwise, do as you will.” Since my practice harms none (and makes me a jollier person to be around :), then I am free to eat as I desire :).

In contrast, your practice is a religious or spiritual discipline (how would you speak of it in this contest?), so instead of it being a recreation for you, it is part of your path to the Divine. So your unease with a practice that is essentially just pleasing the senses – or a pleasing experience – is quite appropriate. Interestingly (well, to me, anyway :), many mature xtns have the same concern about folks who come to church for a yummy “religious experience” instead of a true time of learning, challenge, and growing. This seems to be the same thought, applied to our respective religious activities.

What you describe are wonderful immanent joys, but are they transcendent? Do they connect you to the peace that passeth understanding?

Nope, not a bit. Here is the quote, to clarify the concept, from Philippians 4:
4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice!
5 Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near.
6 Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.
7 And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
8 Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.

Not a bit of asana practice in the whole concept :).

That said, I am intrigued by your implicit argument that Anusara-style practice is an end in itself. That’s sweet. It can be done for any apparent “motive” but is a whole experience in and of itself.

Well, my practice – I’m not speaking for Anusara, which has a very deep philosophy rooted in Tantric texts. And yes, for me, the goal of the practice is the practice. For me, it is the moon, not the finger :).

And really – who actually practices he 8 limbs of yoga? Who sends as much time in their day practicing compassion for all living things, absolute commitment to the truth, contentment, self study, living in the presence of God, control fo the senses, and devotion to God – as they do practicing asana? One in a thousand yogis? So if asana is only one facet of the whole enchallada, who among us is really practicing yoga? Ok, sidetrack – sorry…

“I wish I had an interesting or noble answer for my own motivations…_

You say that like it’s a bad thing. If there is anything more important than love, I am not aware of it. Love covers a thousand sins. That which you do in love, rightly or wrongly, is of cosmic significance. And, of course, your “inertia” sounds like your discipline :). All in all, very good reasons to practice :).

When I say today was the best practice ever, this does not always mean that practice has been gratifying….

I understand what you are saying, and it makes perfect sense for a strongly goal-directed practice. It makes sense if your are willing to put this level of effort into achieving this state of trance. But isn’t that an experience also? Call it what you will, it is a sens-ation. Like wise with the joy of flying about or the prana rush of lots of backbends – it’s all sensation.

In order for the physical practice to transcend the physical, it must have transcendant results or effects. So what are these results? Let me (just rhetorically) ask the same questions that xtns are asked about their religion – does this practice make you a better person? Are you more able to show love to everyone, to help people? Do you spend more time in service to others (and I don’t mean by teaching your religion :-), like feeding the poor and so forth? Do you just have an asana practice, or do you place an equal investment of time and energy in following the other limbs of this yoga religion? Is you commitment to truthfulness so great that you research everything that you say, to make sure that, the very best of your ability, you are speaking the truth? Do you hold your time, posessions, energy, and life with an open hand, willing to share these things fully with those in need? Do you express your sexuality only in ways that move you into greater harmony with God?

Blah, blah, blah :-). These are annoying personal and rhetorical questions, but I hope that they illustrate the question – is a commitment to asana practice really Yoga? Is this really all about Samadhi, or is it about what happens on the mat? Because it is difficult to assign a huge value to asana among the 8 limbs. Perhaps a truely 8-limbed yoga would put only a small amount of time/effort/energy into asana, and much more into pranayama, control of the senses, ahimsa, dharana, and dhyana.

Maybe there are Ashtangis doing all of this other stuff, but the ones that I know are fully focused on asana (and a token 1 pranayam :-), without spending significant time on the other limbs. In these cases, I don’t see the transcendant in their practice.

You don’t get to practice intermediate or advanced ashtanga if you approach practice as a sampler or “achiever,“ but only by just giving yourself over to the routine.

Well, actual mileage may vary. The yogi I know who is most accomplished at doing the poses in the various Ashtanga series, is not an ashtangi, in that she doesn’t practice ashtanga very often. Yoga, yes, but not in the routine of ashtanga.

Sampling this practice leads to suffering and injury—it’s just too difficult otherwise, and I’ve seen a lot of people torture themselves with inconsistent practice…

Yes, but who cares? What I mean is, last time I thought deeply about it, I couldn’t figure out how being able to get one (or even both :-) feet behind my head benefitted my spirit or the world in any way. I didn’t notice a difference in my commitment to the poor after I was finally able to do pincha well. Sun salutations don’t make the world a better place. Becoming hyper-flexible doesn’t make me a better person.

And how is it that a spiritual practice is only for the gifted and lucky? Isn’t the Divine being a little hard on certain of her selves?

The kickback is an indescribable chemical cocktail

Chocolate :-)

Posted by: Dale · Jul 15, 04:29 PM · #
Who is doing 8 limbed practice? Wow, you don’t know ashtanga very well, my friend.

Think of all the possible interps of Phil 4… many passages of the NT (and of course the OT) can be used as touchstones for a practice of centering prayer. Asana, like the labyrinth-walking of the Franciscans or the heart-centering themes elsewhere in Paul’s writings, or whatever other practices you want to make en route to the mystical edges of Judeo-xtn spirituality—well.., I’m just suggesting there’s the possibility of treating asana as centering prayer. Asht-angis tend to treat it as just plain hygiene… self-observational ecstatic toothbrushing, if you will.

I agree that Anusara has philosophical roots in Tantric texts, but would say these roots are shallow rather than deep. The in-house philosopher for the tradition is a mid-career American academic…, and the tantra on offer seems to inspire much premature nondualism that I mistook you for espousing (what you were really espousing was enjoying life in a fully-engaged, non-pretentious way… premature tantra is nothing more than this though it pretends to be “very deep” and thus becomes saccharine and self-inflating).

Yes, it’s true that I want to enter a kind of “yoga mind” in practice—this goal is present. Technically, that involves a kind of withdrawal of the senses, according to the fifth limb.

On this topic, you will love Steve Dwelley’s discussion of yogamind. Very modest and empirical, focused on real experience… but also perhaps points in the direction of the mysticism that is available to all of us.

Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 15, 05:43 PM · #
Also,

Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 15, 08:49 PM · #
“My view of my practice as fun is simply Zen.”

Meaning “it just is what it is”? This notion that zen boils down to “it is what it is” is similar to the notion that Christianity boils down to the golden rule: one can make the case that it DOES, but it’s a tremendous oversimplification.

Posted by: Karen · Jul 16, 01:46 AM · #
Interesting comments! I don’t have a clue about Advaita, except that folks around here don’t seem to like it. I wish I could talk ES&J into sending me that pizza & beer… but I have Celiac disease, and can’t have either one. So I’ll have to content myself with whiskey and chocolate (mmmmm…chocolate). Ok, here goes:
================================

Carl said: “ It’s nice to do just things that feel good and maybe feel ‘right’ for a particular moment. If we only ever do what feels right at any given time, however, we’ll stay stuck in the moments we experience. There are many unexpected delights that are to be enjoyed, but that don’t surface until after much relentless work is invested.”

D> OTOH, if we do what feels wrong at the moment, that might not be the best thing either… :-).

D> Doing the practice because you love the practice doesn’t make one work less. Ever fall in love? Ever had a relative that you really didn’t like? You had a duty to be nice to the relative, but which one did you really work harder to get along with, the woman you loved, or the relative you endured? Love is stronger than duty. So who practices with more commitment, the lover or the dutiful one?
===================

Susan Opined:

“ Ugh. Anusara. What a bunch of show offs. I practiced with a teacher who was an ashtangi and then turned anusarist. She said she never felt good enough when she practiced ashtanga, she never felt special. She was at times unhappy. Until she met Mr. Friend. Now she’s happy all the time.”

D> Wow!! How horrible for her! Quick! Go rescue her before she gets any smile lines!!

“It’s the happy happy our bodies ourselves cult. I have never met a bunch of people more concerned with the postures and how beautiful they were doing it. The intensives are like a big circle jerk. Oh! Looka her! Lookie him! Weeeee!”

D> Equally horrible to celebrate someone else’s successes and studentship. You’re right – we should never encourage one another – someone might be less miserable!! Horrible thought.

“Yoga is not about feeling good and doing all the fun postures.”

D> Yoga is about feeling bad and doing things that are not any fun at all!! Wait, what?

“How could it be? Do the Sutras tell us to find your bliss? “

D> Ummm… actually… yes. That’s kind of what samadhi is all about. If you want to get out of the ‘hood, you need to get in touch with your god-hood. And probably wear an item of clothing that incorporates a hood. There should be some sort of name for it that has “hood” in it. And being god is pretty fun – maybe even … blissful?
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Cody mentioned

“ Either way, I’m not so sure that I could apply favorite asana practice techniques to everyday activities. The heavy breathing might freak out the regular folks! “

D> ha ha ha ha ha ha. rotfl:-)

D> Interestingly, I jusr read Baron’s book & spent a week at a local BB studio. I really enjoyed the classes, and picked up some new flow patterns to add to my “classical flow”, Shiva Rea, &etc flows. I enjoyed the 90F warm room – not as hot as some folks keep an Ashtanga studio, and not too cold (I hate cold rooms).

D> In general, I found the philosophy and goals in his book to be mostly pop psychology and stuff borrowed (without credit) from other traditions – I was shocked by the blatent “mee too-ism” of his Master Principles of Alignment. But none of that really permeated the practice, and the teachers & the kids in the classes were mainly open, transparent, friendly, excited, and having alot of sweaty fun. My kind of practice :-).

D> Probably not dour enough for folks who insist on suffering through their practice instead of dancing their practice.

D> Speaking of which – ever try a Shiva Rea prana yoga class or a trance dance ? Seriously groovin!

===========================

Owl chimed in “ I’m just suggesting there’s the possibility of treating asana as centering prayer. Asht-angis tend to treat it as just plain hygiene… self-observational ecstatic toothbrushing, if you will.”

D> Or a moving single-point meditation on the breath. Yep, I was wondering if anyone was going to mention that. I don’t think that this is what the tradition that Patanjali wrote down parts of really had in mind – the other styles of yoga definitely do not interpret it so. But that doesn’t mean that you are wrong – maybe they are. But in any event, the point is the intention, so I’ll grant that “serious” Ashtangis intend to practice both asana and

D> So anyway, since you mentioned it, I’ll posit that Ashtangis intend to practice both asana and dharana during their practice.

D> That leaves a lot of uncovered territory yamas & niyamas (which granted, don’t necessarily take any time per se to practice) – do “Serious” Ashtangis know and attempt to practice these? How many can name them without looking them up? Maybe a bad test – maybe an honest self-assessment would be best…

D> That brings us to pranayama. I do not see Ashtangis practicing any pranayama but one. Maybe this limb needs some attention?

D> Again, pratyahara is not (obviously) designed to be practiced while doing asana. In fact, the concept seems rather dangerous. Souldn’t one be strongly aware of one’s body while practicing? Yet the practice of pratyahara involved turning the awareness away from sensory input. So when does the Ashtangi practice this limb?

D> Dhyana – I don’t know where to start with this one, but I’m pretty sure that dhyana and practicing challenging asana are not recommended, unless you want to end up in a body cast :-).

D> That brings us back to transcendence, samadhi, & asana, & I think we have that one covered :-).

“The in-house philosopher for the tradition is a mid-career American academic…, “
D> And Einstein was a patent clerk who nearly flunked out of gymnasium – everybody needs a day job :-).
D> Yeah, I already have a religion, so the philosophical basis of Anusara, wile interesting in a number of ways, is not somethng that I am interested in defending.

“ Yes, it’s true that I want to enter a kind of “yoga mind” in practice—this goal is present. Technically, that involves a kind of withdrawal of the senses, according to the fifth limb.”

D> ok, let’s talk about this, because I don’t think so. With pratyahara, you would withdraw your awareness from your body, so that, fully formed, you would refuse to be awareof the position of your left arm. I do not think that this is compatible with asana practice. How would you harmonize the two?

Owl quoting Dale “My view of my practice as fun is simply Zen.”
“Meaning “it just is what it is”? This notion that zen boils down to “it is what it is” is similar to the notion that Christianity boils down to the golden rule: one can make the case that it DOES, but it’s a tremendous oversimplification.”

D> Meaning that one drinks when one is thirsty, which is a simple mind that Zen is happy to embrace. I practice with the simple goal of practicing. this is probably a bunny trail, so feel free to forget it if you like. Appeals to Zen are not really relevent to yoga :-).

Posted by: Dale · Jul 16, 10:01 PM · #
I almost miss Zee.

Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 17, 04:55 AM · #
Maybe we should introduce them to each other.

Posted by: V · Jul 17, 05:34 AM · #
don’t forget Yogi Bill

Posted by: Karen · Jul 17, 06:36 AM · #
Aaaah, the memories!

Posted by: V · Jul 17, 06:53 AM · #
Hi (0v0)
In a way, I know you’re speaking to me. Here I am experimenting with 3rd Series poses. I feel that if I want to be doing 3rd Series when I’m 60 I need to get started now. I would not want to start when I’m 90, but I know that saying that is being sarcastic. By that age, if one gets to it, most poses have been taken away from one. I certainly don’t want to injure myself. I also see the benefit of repetition daily, leading to your body feeling lighter, more flexible and more balanced. But in my heart of hearts, I know that no ashtanga teacher is going to advance me to 3rd series. There are those poses to perfect that are a block. So I have to be my own teacher and allow the experimentation. And who knows, after some time, I actually will be able to do Dwi Pada and Karandavasana unassisted perfectly. My inspiration in this is a wiry yogi I met 3 and a half years ago, who taught himself 3rd series with videos and books. He was thin and energetic. I have also seen the same angst in L, (horseback rider) who is practicing with a teacher with whom he got through third. There came a moment for him after 6 years of practice that he felt he had to do it. I’m sorry if it’s not the method and I see the value for the method. My ramblings in my blog about my experimentation, from a traditional ashtanga point of view, seem crim and probably are not popular with teachers.

hugs
Arturo

Posted by: arturo · Jul 17, 07:32 AM · #
Hi Arturo,

Quick question, with absolutely no intention to upset or offend, promise!

Why is it so important for you to do Third Series?

Posted by: Vanessa · Jul 17, 07:38 AM · #
Arturo, I was NOT talking to you. Nope. It had not occurred to me at all to call out a person who practices daily and methodically, as I sense you do, though I don’t know any specifics and am not your teacher.

It’s really none of my business, but if you uneasy about your practice, I would ask: Are you frequently tweaking parts of your body or experiencing post-practice body pain? If so, you are practicing beyond your level of mindful competence.

Are you practicing third because it’s “against the rules” to do so and you have a desire to be an iconoclast for iconoclasicissm’s sake? If so, you have unresolved issues from your relationship with parental authority that you need to resolve instead of flogging yourself with them in your relationship to your practice. Some people are drawn to ashtanga because they need an authority to defy as a way of reliving aggression or passive aggression toward their parents or authority in general. I would know.

These are just the questions I would ask anybody. I am not judging your practice, Arturo. It does not concern me.

But you must know that I gained a full 10 pounds when I started practicing 3S regularly—not only muscle. I just need to eat more to sustain the energy for it—for most poeple, it’s not some lithe, wiry practice. It’s closer to weightlifting and has an almost aerobic element (unlike, perhaps, the previous series). These postures don’t make you thin.

Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 17, 08:37 AM · #
Someone just reminded me of another question worth asking of anyone. Again, not a question focused on anyone in particular, just a good one for the self-observation collection. Here it is: Are you practicing ahead because you want to be one of the special people?

Hello! You are already perfect! Love yourself!

The person whose practice I respect most is doing half primary. And there are some real jerks in third. Nothing special on the self-worth scale, though I do note that sometimes the people who imagine/create hierarchies among practitioners according to “how far are you?” are beginners.

Now that I think of it, I once knew a room where such hierarchies were common. Many people were doing 2S and 3S but in this sense it was a room full of beginners.

It’s not a race, right…?

Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 17, 09:08 AM · #
Yeah, Zee has some vinegar in ‘im. And he’s pretty sharp, too.

Dale, I think you need a blog. Blogs are great time capsules. You can stow your windy stuff away and read through it again at some later time. Maybe in a few years you’ll be astonished at the things you’ve written.

Posted by: Carl · Jul 17, 02:41 PM · #
This whole thing seems to me to be a silly argument – kind of like the argument of whether or not God exists. God exists for you if you want him to. End of story.

In other words, it’s not about the practice, it’s not about what you call it – it’s about what you bring to it.

Posted by: katie · Jul 17, 05:36 PM · #
Hi again
Vanessa, I would not be offended by your question, particularly since I respect your dedication and sincerity.

So here is my candid. Why do I want to practice 3rd Series? Because I don’t aspire to practice Advanced A & B, the ones following 3rd Series, since Tim Miller said that those of us who started Ashtanga later in life (after ones 30s) do not need to concern ourselves with those. I understand his rationale. You probably need to have started early to be able to bend those ankles in some of those super advanced poses and not break something. So I feel that if as an ashtangi I’m entitled to do all three series, then I want to do them all – including those that I haven’t reached yet, and because I’m slow, the sooner I start the better. That to me means that in 5 years maybe I might be doing Eka Pada Bakasana or Durvasasana actually gracefully and not timidly.
Cheers,
Arturo

Posted by: arturo · Jul 17, 06:36 PM · #
Hi again, (0v0)
You ask and state, “Are you frequently tweaking parts of your body or experiencing post-practice body pain? If so, you are practicing beyond your level of mindful competence.” I might be experiencing some post practice body pain, but I usually know what to do to counter act it. For example, I have been waking up with a slightly sore left neck. Ahem, it’s my tight side on LBH poses, not a surprise. Do you know what helped this morning? More LBH poses, which kind of massaged the muscles back there. Horseback Rider, who is practicing 3rd says that sometimes the practice is wrecking him. He also states that the body has to adjust to it.

You other question and statement is: “Are you practicing third because it’s “against the rules” to do so and you have a desire to be an iconoclast for iconoclasicissm’s sake? If so, you have unresolved issues from your relationship with parental authority.”

That’s interesting, but I am the least iconoclastic person and have always had a fantastic relationship with my parents, whose authority I’ve always followed. I’ve always been the model son, student, friend, etc. How else would I have even considered being a monk with the Carthusians at age 19? I’ve never suffered from a passive aggression against authority. I’ve always been mild in personality, compliant, observant, etc.

My focus on 3rd is just recent, when I started practicing at home. I asked myself, what is this? Am I supposed to continue doing 2nd daily until I can get beyond Nakrasana, one month at a time. That is where I was last stopped by one teacher.

hugs
Arturo

Posted by: arturo · Jul 17, 06:45 PM · #
Hi Arturo, sorry I still have more questions!

First of all, you say “as an Ashtangi I am entitled to Third Series”...I’m intrigued by this. What do you mean exactly by entitled? Maybe it’s my use of English, but I always understood entitlement as a “right to something”. I don’t think Guruji, or any teacher, ever said “do Ashtanga and you get to do Third Series”...

But anyway, that’s just a thought, what I’m really interested in is: but why do you WANT to do Third Series so badly? I mean, it has obviously caused friction with some teachers for you, to the point that you are doing self practice because you really, really want to do Third and you won’t get it at a shala. What exactly do you expect from Third? What do you think these poses will give you that Primary or Second won’t? What’s that magical element that you are searching for?

Sorry if this is too trascendental for so early in the morning. I’m just intrigued.

Posted by: V · Jul 17, 11:54 PM · #
Arturo – You, go dude!!!!! You are entitled to do whatever yoga you want to do, as long as you are not hurting anybody… Be as adventurous as you want to be.

I do not allow any teacher to tell me what I can and cannot do. They have no authority over me – I am a free man & I don’t work for them. In fact – hmmmm – I am paying them for a service. Interesting consideration…

There is one Ashtanga teacher who is able to very strongly influence which poses I practice, because she actually knows the biomechanics of the poses, she has studied my practice, and she can explain to me not only how to do certain poses and transitions (which is of pretty minor importance), but how to do the work that each pose is intended to offer. In other words, she uses her expert influence to show me the best path for me. Now that is a teacher. “Teachers” who just rely on their authority to control your actions might not be worthy. Because what is it that makes a teacher worthy? Dedication to the welfare, progress, and satisfaction of the student. A worthy teacher uses the practice to serve the student, as opposed to trying to make the student serve the practice.

Have you seen the Ashtanga Rocket? Go to http://www.itsyoga.com/library.htm and click on the Rocket II Poses and Transitions – it is a really cool video of just the poses and transitions from the rocket series developed by Larry Schultz. It is a very fun vinyasa flow based on the first few series od Ashtanga, and has alot of arm balances & core work. If you are ready for something new or in addition to yur regular practice, it’s worth a look.

Posted by: Dale · Jul 20, 02:26 PM · #
Carl – got one. I’m in general agreement with things that I wrote 30 years ago (obviously not in a blog), although the details have changed.

Katie – Are you really serious that the existence of something depends on whether you believe it exists? Wow. Can you believe some extra spending money into existence? What about diseases – can you disbelieve them out of existence?

And since some people believe that God is eternal, all-knowing and all-powerful, and some people believe that God does not exist, and so can not do anything, then how does that work? What if the God of the believer decided to cause a dog to piss on a really ugly painting at 3p on 6/24/08. Would it happen, or would the disbelief of the unbeliever prevent the God of the believer from taking action?

Nah. Things either exist or they do not. We may not know the answer, but the answer is there.

Posted by: Dale · Jul 20, 02:34 PM · #
Remember how we told Yogi Bill he could do anything he liked as long as he kept it in the sandbox of his one particular thread?

Have fun, Dale!

You’ll find that most of the ideas you’re bringing up (entitlement, teachers as service providers, asanas as biomechanical phenomena, the fact that yoga poses aren’t that difficult really and a person can be the best teacher for her own body after about a thousand times through the primary series, the placebo effect and the practical utility of belief in transcendent stuff, unprocessed authority issues, issues of self-worth and the worthiness of others, uses and limitations of multiple exclamation marks and/or the word “Dude”) have been openly discussed and mostly discarded elsewhere in these pages.

Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 20, 02:47 PM · #
Dale, I see Owl has already signed off on you, but must also mention that if you want to equate corporeal realities like money and disease with the spirtual concept of God, that’s your call.

Posted by: katie · Jul 21, 09:59 AM · #
Hi again, (0v0)
Vanessa, I was away a few days, so I was unable to answer. I may contact you offblog about some explanations regarding my home practice that I’ve written to (0v0) offblog. The summary is that I practice at home 5 days a week to save money, not to get to 3rd series.
hugs
Arturo

Posted by: arturo · Jul 22, 06:08 AM · #
No explanations about the why of your home practice required, Arturo. My only question was why do you want Third Series so badly. But hey, it’s not important. No need to explain or justify.

Posted by: V · Jul 22, 07:02 AM · #
Blimey! Just catching up here. I’ll blog my own take on this shortly, when I figure out what it is. It’s a pretty relevant question for me lately.

Posted by: susananda · Jul 26, 07:35 AM · #
This is a monster of a thread, isn’t it? Would like your take on it, S.

Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 26, 07:37 AM · #