Question · 2 November 2009
Under what conditions does yoga make a person
1) more egotistical or
2) less kind
than one was before?
Posted by (0v0)
Categories: astanga yoga
, morality
, self-deception
, spirituality
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Bhoga.
Posted by: e&sj · Nov 2, 01:46 PM · #
Hard to resist some kind of “stick-up-the-asana” or “lululemon wedgie” joke here. But… In all seriousness, I’d say: when your interest is purely self-promoting, fame-whoring, as enabled by certain corporate McYoga superstructures.
Why? Rough day at the Shala?
Posted by: Liz2 · Nov 2, 04:29 PM · #
When he need to be right, or to show someone else they are in error, over rides?
Posted by: elle · Nov 2, 05:39 PM · #
Yeah.... Chilling day in general L2. And a question to myself as well.
It really does freak me out, though. When this happens.
Posted by: (0v0) · Nov 2, 07:03 PM · #
hi (0v0), i don’t think yoga would make a person that way, if the practice is honest.
hugs
Arturo
Posted by: arturo · Nov 3, 02:53 PM · #
I have a thorough answer to the question in my forthcoming book “Yoga for HorseLovers” in the chapter on ashwini mudra. Check it out at booth 41 at the YogaJournal conference, 2nd stone from the sun.
Posted by: e&sj · Nov 3, 03:46 PM · #
I agree with an earlier comment: when the yoga falls into (or creates) self-centeredness, yes? Not an investigative questioning of the self, a FOCUS on the self (Sutras-style samyama), but an actual self-centeredness, ego centeredness, “look at me,” or “I can do thing X” or “my yoga is better than yours,” flavors like that.
Posted by: patrick · Nov 4, 10:45 AM · #
ESJ, are you the yogi whisperer? Yes, I think you are.
Patrick, I don’t mean to play dumb, but I am feeling dumbfounded by these questions lately.
Yes… it seems like we are always wanting to prove ourselves strong or proving ourselves right, and yoga can become a part of that. Almost automatically.
I don’t know if it’s possible for that vibe not to be present. Often it goes away completely. But then as soon as we start talking about it, the vibe wants to come in.
I wonder what it would take to really support a spirit of inquiry and de-emphasize the proving. I don’t know. It can be done though.
Posted by: (0v0) · Nov 5, 07:58 PM · #
How about positing that it might just be a bad day and that the person’s better self will be in evidence tomorrow?
Posted by: KNL · Nov 6, 06:19 AM · #
I don’t think it does. I just think there are conditions in which innate egotism/unkindness get highlighted by the way someone approaches yoga. But I’m not sure what those are since I think they’re mainly internal conditions & we can’t see them working.
Posted by: katie · Nov 6, 09:15 AM · #
Indeed—how often does the post-practice chitchat turn to “I got into Q today!” and such? To really live in the question, we’d have to do asana almost as a challenge to language, and then agree to not speak about it. Karen said something once here about the power of naming, of describing a practice. I guess the “real” question would be something like, how much of the unsaid did I access? Or, how far from myself did I get? But if you name that, doesn’t it screw the whole thing up?
Posted by: patrick · Nov 6, 09:17 AM · #
Thanks for helping me puzzle through this. It brings up a few questions: does practice change one’s character at all? If so, is this a shared or social process?
Given that there is always a social morality in play (even amorality, or hatred of morality, or mass competition (Capitalism), is a social morality), does that actually matter for the quality of interaction (i.e., outward kindness)? Do a person’s moral ideals shape the way that practices changes or doesn’t her over time?
What’s the relationship of conscious intention, the kind of people you surround yourself with, and (the dependent variable) compassion?
I don’t know. Maybe none of this stuff is related.
Posted by: (0v0) · Nov 6, 12:03 PM · #
Yoga is only supposed to help us clear our mental haze so we can see all our own bullshit more clearly, yes? It must only be self-obliviousness to our egotism and unkindness that would be non-yogic.
Posted by: Carl · Nov 6, 02:00 PM · #
I love this: “asana as a challenge to language, then agree to not speak about it.” Like asking us to sit on our hands. We would all crack under the strain of restraint! But what a delightful thought.
But someone sort of touched on the fact that it’s probably a chicken or egg kind of thing. If someone is a twat, that’s a pre-yogic condition. Only it’s apt to be amplified as one reaches a certain level of aptitude with regards to the physical practice. And Arturo is probably right: if the intent is honest, and that aim remains uncorrupted, you should be all clear. right?
Posted by: Liz2 · Nov 6, 02:35 PM · #
as i understand it, the practice of yoga has something to do with the goal of seeing clearly— painfully clearly? delightfully clearly?— what is beyond (or your adverb of choice) the patterns that trap us in jack-ass-dom et al. honesty: yes.
mission accomplished?
language can help with this; sometimes it does.
but a practice which demands in us the qualities of strength and ease at once also does seems to work best when we engage in a little hand-sitting (yay, liz). plus that might prevent arthritis.
you can talk someone into the shape of an asana but you can’t talk them into the experience of it—
likewise, i think kindness is a felt urgency, not something we talk ourselves into. it’s a reflex, like throwing up.
so maybe part of “practice” is to work with our reflexes and to point out, by whatever means, all that we regularly engage in which is not kind. our twat-tendencies,so to speak. to be strong and easeful enough to shed those bit by bit.
i love this virtual community; it has my mind feeling as if is doing a three-legged race while in vrksasana.
on compassion and kindness and the fun of it— check out bob thurman on being buddhas, via tedtalks.
Posted by: Sara · Nov 7, 01:16 AM · #
David Kyle (not Keil) once said in a yogapeeps interview that yoga makes you better at whatever you are: so even if you’re a thief (or, extending to relevancy here, a twat), it makes you a better one.
Can one be a better twat, or only less twatful?
Posted by: patrick · Nov 8, 08:23 AM · #
“I wonder what it would take to really support a spirit of inquiry and de-emphasize the proving.”
Owl, I think you support this spirit of inquiry here all the time. This is why I love your blog and come back to it all the time. It takes an open mind, willingness to try on another’s point of view, a capacity to know that there is more than one way to do something, to accomplish something, to live.
As an alternative run of thought, sometimes I find that I need to have more assertive point of view. This is hard to explain. The other day I was in a training situation, training on something I have been doing for 20 years, but now only practice every 6 months to maintain currency. The instructors were professional, motivated, and very good. I was with 11 other very practiced people and I felt like a beginner, a bit lost in the maelstrom going on around me. But a few skilled instructors whispered some key things to me, likely things I had heard before and forgot, and I listened carefully and applied their suggestions, and wow, my performance became sharp and skillful.
It’s good to approach everything with an open mind, (beginner’s mind?) but at the same time, I think it’s good to know what you know, and hang on to what you know. My attention is divided among so many things at the moment, it’s challenging to maintain focus, to remember what I know.
Posted by: elle · Nov 8, 10:01 AM · #
:-)
:-)
This is delightful. Gut-kindness.... And Elle, I feel like that too; and Carl and Sara seem to be reminding me of what I have known.
Here is the talk Sara mentioned.
And Karen sent this: “When you practice with other people, everyone helps you see your correct situation. Then your life becomes simple and clear. Then your thinking-walls become weaker and weaker, and soon they disappear.”
The last lines, too offer an answer to Patrick: “When you practice correctly and become strong, your demons can also become strong. When together-action [hanging out with others] is difficult, this means your Dharma and your karma are both very strong. At that time, you must only go straight — persevere.”
Right. Sigh. OK.
Posted by: (0v0) · Nov 8, 01:38 PM · #
yoga brings you into balance, so in situations where you were excessively self effacing and kind (a doormat, say) yoga would correct the imbalance. (Without making you Mr/Ms Stabby, of course.) Ego and selfishness, in their proper place and measure, are as necessary to human life as selflessness and kindness are in theirs – we need both.
Posted by: Zaf · Nov 8, 08:40 PM · #
ZAF— whoever you are, you have a great flavor of play-dough. rah rah to the raw materials of what(ever) we are made of!
Posted by: Sara · Nov 8, 11:47 PM · #
She’s got you there Zaf. :-)
I agree there’s no point in being a doormat… What’s kind about that?
I do puzzle over how much to focus on my own experience and knowledge… and how much to focus on what I don’t know.
Usually the former is tiresome and the latter is exciting. But as a result I sometimes wind up flattering people, which is sort of selfish on my part.
Listen, this is really nice. She has a great interpretation of the way that science and religion “fell in love with each other” in the age of Newton.
At the end, she’s riffing, and says: “A lot of people don’t wan’t to be compassionate. The want to be right. ...Religion is a very difficult thing to do well. It requires a daily effort to overcome the ego that holds us back….”
Posted by: (0v0) · Nov 9, 12:18 PM · #