Give a girl the technology for bliss, she turns it into a hair-shirt · 24 January 2008
Does using your practice as a scalpel for perfectionism prevent you from knowing that you are already perfect? Well, of course it does. Everyone knows this. Stupid perfectionism.
But in the same way, is using your practice as a tool for awakening so much self-flagellation? Does it actually prevent us from realizing we are already awake?
If we see practice as a tool for getting someplace instead of a way of being awake, maybe we become attached to the tool. Attached to this idea of working out some noble process.
And we become identified with our history--everything I’ve been through, all the dedication I’ve shown, all the openings I’ve experienced! You should have seen my hamstrings that first year, I’m telling you. Like the vipassana practitioner who wants you to know she’s been at it faithfully for twenty years! To console herself about the fact that all that has really deepened in that time is her awareness of her own suffering.
I’m not saying I can vaporize my unconscious by dint of will. It’s active whenever I go in to the world, so I may as well process that shit out the best I can. Many Integralists say you have to repair the ego before you can transcend it. These people say we do have shadows raging behind our eyes… but also that this does not prevent us from experiencing higher states of consciousness from time to time. You nondualists won’t like this contradiction, but that’s just because you’ve gone to sleep again and are busy wallowing in distinctions.
The possibility that even if we are already perfect the second we shake ourselves awake, we still have issues.
Posted by (0v0)
Categories: evolution
, integration
, self-deception
, spirituality
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Thank you.
Posted by: R · Jan 24, 05:00 PM · #
Let’s say I am a savage. I as a savage never saw a car in my life. And you are going to teach me to drive a car. You say, turn on the keys and start the engine… then move clutch to D.. etc..etc.. then stop the car and turn off the engine.
Now, I can ask you a very logical question: Why did I turn on the engine, when at the end you asked me to turn off the engine? Why did I not leave the engine turned off all the time?
“Does the practice actually prevent us from realizing we are already awake?” Yup, it is the same logical question.
Every practice, in order to work, must start and end. The spiritual mastery is right there: to know when and what to start practicing and to know when to end the practice. My practice is not done yet. Yes, heart transplant is done but the patient is not dead yet. :)
Posted by: zee · Jan 24, 05:11 PM · #
Yes.
You are reborn as Zee Tse Tzu.
Part scourge. Part dictator. Part mystic.
Posted by: (0v0) · Jan 24, 05:18 PM · #
Correction: All scourge. All dictator. All mystic.
Posted by: Carl · Jan 24, 05:22 PM · #
Got me. Thanks man.
Posted by: (0v0) · Jan 24, 05:26 PM · #
Not many really want to be awake. Really. Awake. How many really want that? I want a show of hands.
My bet is….
Cody: no
Carl: maybe
Owl: getting there, might say yes soon.
Karen: Yes.
R:?
PatricK:?
Zee: Yes!!
And BTW, Zee your heart transplant is doing amazingly well, are you working on mind removal now?:)
Posted by: Susan · Jan 24, 06:04 PM · #
Awakeness isn’t my principal goal. I expect it’ll come someday when it’s time.
Zee is definitely not “awake.” He is too oblivious to his own paradoxical nature.
Posted by: Carl · Jan 24, 06:31 PM · #
I didn’t say he was awake, I said he wants to be.
And why wouldn’t you want to be awake? You chicken?
Posted by: Susan · Jan 24, 07:15 PM · #
i’m too stupid to understand zee. i mean, maybe i’m just to lazy to try to follow his little choo choo train of thought into the station.
Posted by: laksmi · Jan 24, 07:48 PM · #
Have you read “Enlightenment: the damnedest thing” by Jed McKenna? If not, it’s a good read, and very down to earth.
Nice post!
cj x
Posted by: CJ · Jan 25, 01:21 AM · #
Susan is correct. I think the whole “awake” thing is a bunch of malarky. For me, yoga is a process of involution. It’s a means to de-condition the mind so we’re not seeing the world through a distorted lens. No distortion = samadhi = yoga. All the rest is poetry, metaphor and perhaps a wee bit of salesmanship.
(No offense intended to those who believe.)
Posted by: cody · Jan 25, 04:24 AM · #
Any word can sub in for “practice” — job, relationship, car, book, metaphor, cynicism.
Of course, all of them might work, too.
Susan, you’re not on the list. :-)
Posted by: karen · Jan 25, 04:41 AM · #
second that, Karen.
Owl, on non-dualism: this isn’t your thing, do I read that accurately? I have thoughts re: action, “being the actor,” receiving…etc…things you’ve posted about before. More coming your way soon.
Re: susan and “awake” and that Wilbur quote posted in the prior comments. Awake? Does that mean lacking all coloration of the consciousness or just being able to see the colors? Or something else? Anyway: the quote about the path not comforting, but breaking open (or words to that effect). Such a path might be inadvertently chosen; in a way, such a path might be perceived to be HAPPENING. This is not unrelated to zee’s posts on non-dualism. Waking up, coming to consciousness, suffering? Separate, or not? All a matter of point of view, or not?
Posted by: patrick · Jan 25, 06:43 AM · #
Salesmanship? Well, Cody you’d know about that.
As far as your looking for involution.
Involution. Well isn’t that basically a mathematical double negation. It’s also what’s called “fuzzy logic”....are you going to figure this out mathematically?
Or the Miriam Webster Dictionary definition is: “(1): the act or an instance of enfolding or entangling : involvement (2): an involved grammatical construction usually characterized by the insertion of clauses between the subject and predicate b: complexity intricacy2: exponentiation3 a: an inward curvature or penetration b: the formation of a gastrula by ingrowth of cells formed at the dorsal lip4: a shrinking or return to a former size5: the regressive alterations of a body or its parts characteristic of the aging process 1 a (1): the act or an instance of enfolding or entangling : involvement (2): an involved grammatical construction usually characterized by the insertion of clauses between the subject and predicate b: complexity intricacy2: exponentiation3 a: an inward curvature or penetration b: the formation of a gastrula by ingrowth of cells formed at the dorsal lip4: a shrinking or return to a former size5: the regressive alterations of a body or its parts characteristic of the aging process <skeletal involution due to loss of estrogens at menopause>
Posted by: Susan · Jan 25, 07:16 AM · #
Wow, I double pasted. Sorry.
But I see that there’s some self involvement in Miriam’s def of involution, and there’s some non-dualism in the mathematical version….
Posted by: Susan · Jan 25, 07:22 AM · #
Yikes! I can’t even understand those definitions!
Susan. I’ve felt the bliss of non-dual realization. It’s great. Ironically, of course, it adds to sorrow as it’s just another grand experience that was had, lost and desired again.
I don’t care what happened in the last life or what will happen in the next life. Or even if there is a last life or a next life. Yoga, to me, is a tool for psychological self-surgery. Learn to detach and observe our own behaviors. Try to figure out what drives our habits and tendencies. Work on replacing the bad with good. Try to be happy and spread that happiness to others. Use your mind as a tool but don’t get lost in the never-ending and destructive thoughts.
non-dualism? dualism? sure. what’s the difference? I still have to do the laundry and make more podcasts! :)
Posted by: cody · Jan 25, 07:57 AM · #
I believe the paradox sings something like this:
Non-dualism allows for dualism (in fact, it must). And so, we become subjects, we use verbs, we act on objects (unless we’re intransitive). And the world exists.
And it still does—*but it doesn’t*—if you go the other way.
Posted by: patrick · Jan 25, 08:21 AM · #
Susan, I am working on mind removal. Patient is not dead (yet), means exactly that. :)
Please do not put me in any category. I do belong to tradition from which I do not deviate for a moment. I’m caring it on my shoulders and I know EXACTLY where is the final destination. I am not Non-dualist but I am ‘stealing” that Knowledge at present time, because it is full of Power. The same thing for Ashtanga Yoga. The same Power now is approaching from Dzogchen Tibetan Zen techings. It is the teaching for future Time.
So, get rid off all pre-coditioning of that “awake”, “not awake” and stop thnking of what the correct Path is… TAKE CARE OF WHAT YOU KNOW. Now, it is the time to use you KNOWLEDGE.
We are ALL talking about the same thing… As a pragmatic man, I see where is the problem, it is: TERMINOLOGY. We must establish the common ground, we must start understanding each-other, Laxmi!. So let start:
MIND – what is mind? In my native language this word does not exist. There is “brain” and “thoughts” but there is no “mind” as a word. So for me, it is very easy to relate to the “mind” a non-existent thing. But all these books are mentioning mind, greater mind, lesser mind etc.. so we are confused. Lets take Gurdjieff defining of mind as our basic ground for word MIND, It is very appropriate. He said that mind is a peace of subtle body matter corresponding to “unsalted” meat of physical body. You know that physical body is mostly ‘salted” but there are flesh that is not “salted”, so that is MIND. The function of mind is to record everything what is happening in the senses. That’s all. Just recording. It is ME-MORY tool.
Next thing is INTELLECT: So called Buddhi. Do you see how this word Buddhi is confusing. We do not feel relation to it. With word INTELLECT it is different thing. So what is intellect? The life energy circulates through our bodies. MIND records sensations etc.. When Life Energy pass across unsalted meat (mind) OBSERVATION HAPPENS. The function of this observation is DISCRIMINATION and fulfilling this function is called INTELLECT. Intellect has Power of discrimination to tell us WHAT IS NOT. Intellect can not tell us WHAT IS, because what IS it IS. Nobody can tell you of what IS.
Two kind of problems on our path to FREEDOM appears: When INTELLECT tells us WHAT IS, and worst when MIND start WORD PROCESSING. Mind holds the words, Intellect tells what is not. That is all to remember for now.
Posted by: Zee · Jan 25, 08:32 AM · #
“I think the whole ‘awake’ thing is a bunch of malarky…. No distortion = samadhi = yoga. All the rest is poetry….(No offense intended to those who believe.)”
I love the first section of Light on Yoga and frequently remember a place where Iyengar asks yoga practitioners not to disparage the beliefs of others just for the sake of so doing.
Yet this is an environment for self-examination and critical thought. In other words: for challenging belief. For offending it!
Here, at a glance, the one solid statement of a belief not articulated with experience would seem to be the one I have copied above.
When you are treading the ground of the ineffable, sometimes you hate yourself in the morning if you try to talk about it. I am all for attempting to discuss these things: it is potentially subversive, inspiring and a little crazy.
But given the dangers, shall we set a modest bar for that of which we must remain silent? Let’s at least try to fumble here with our actual experience, and leave anything which we personally have not experienced open to the silence.
Posted by: (0v0) · Jan 25, 08:40 AM · #
Owl… of course. If we want to discuss the things “from beginning” we must have a common language. So this is ATTEMPT to establish it.
If you suggest any other TERMINOLOGY then.. well , tell me, tell us.
Or we just leave as it is.
Posted by: Zee · Jan 25, 09:22 AM · #
“Here, at a glance, the one solid statement of a belief not articulated with experience would seem to be the one I have copied above.”
Why make that assumption? By MY definition of yoga I’ve assuredly directly experienced yoga. I’m sure many of you have as well. Now, if you’re talking about samadhi being a sustained state of no-thinking, then guilty as charged…but I read yoga and samadhi as synonyms. like zee said, it’s all about common terminology.
My very conscious addition of the phrase “I think” was intended to ensure that it was understood as a statement of my beliefs rather than a criticism of others’ beliefs.
Posted by: cody · Jan 25, 09:30 AM · #
Cody, don’t be angry. You did not understand me.
Posted by: (0v0) · Jan 25, 09:55 AM · #
not angry…defensive! :)
Posted by: cody · Jan 25, 10:07 AM · #
Same thing.
And that is not what Zee said. He is working from a different level.
If we are defending a self and beliefs and playing “I’m more enlightened than you” games, there is no curiosity, no openness, no insight.
I won’t do petty semantic shadow-boxing. No. Stop it. Not here. No. Words words words.
Posted by: (0v0) · Jan 25, 10:23 AM · #
Susan, I’m not chicken. Whatever it is to “be awake” it must be lovely. The problem is that the issues of life when not awake probably don’t translate directly into the awake life. I surmise that once a preson “awakens” there’s no going back. No way to revisit the old neighborhood. There’s stuff I haven’t done yet and if I should become “awake” before accomplishing those things, then my only opportunity will have been squandered.
Posted by: Carl · Jan 26, 04:09 PM · #
Chicken:)
You won’t squander anything and you’d still be in the neighborhood….
Posted by: Susan · Jan 27, 10:46 AM · #
Fine. I’ll race you to awakeness then.
Posted by: Carl · Jan 27, 12:48 PM · #