FBHII · 2 July 2008
Leave it to the comments function to hiccup when my writing's most nonsensical. If I mangled the subject of auto-pretzeling, or it raised questions, fine to drop comments here.
Posted by (0v0)
Categories: astanga yoga
Previous entry: Sex and 3S, or, a post about putting your feet behind your head / Next entry: Sequels
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Ok now?
Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 2, 09:51 AM · #
Let’s find out! I think my original comment-to-be said these things:
1) I’m, actually, a 14 y/o Indian boy.
2) What’s this about women/3s? Never heard such a thing. Of course, also know (in person anyway) no women who do 3s.
3) FBH easier than advanced backbending, if you’re me anyway.
Posted by: patrick · Jul 2, 09:57 AM · #
Do you have a sense that there are beginning, intermediate and advanced FBH?
Would others agree?
Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 2, 10:00 AM · #
Speaking almost entirely from the Eka Pada/Dwi Pada school of FBH, with occasional and incomplete (and these days, rare) forays into Chakorasana, Kasyapasana and Bhairavasana, I can say that there are less and more complicated FBH’s.
Actually, even the “three” FBH’s that make up Eka Pada Sirsasana, teach that. The forward fold actually invites a foot-slip-overhead a little MORE than seated does, and the pressup (as well as whether you keep the leg straight or try for a one-breath Chakorasana) also intensify the likelihood of the foot-slip. Conversely, the more of these one can comfortably stick, the “deeper” or “more advanced” or (as I’m most comfortable saying) more capable of handling complication, one’s FBH is.
Posted by: patrick · Jul 2, 10:21 AM · #
Yes, I wish I knew how to talk about the 2S FBH dynamics, but I will need to work with people there more to be able to understand better. Those three are definitely different, each one.
Where I’m writing below is about the FBH sequence in 3S and the dynamics it creates not so much in my neck and outer hips but inside the pelvis.
It makes sense that intermediate FBH focuses on neck and outer hips. I am not sure were primary FBH (supta k) focuses. I really wasn’t aware of what was going on in my body at that time. Supta K and Dwi Pada seem to be really different for most people, but I don’t understand why too well.
I think one key, though, is that these postures in particular work progressively. I’d really be careful with working kashybasana without having practiced 2S daily for quite a while. Why not work the posture best suited to the place in the body where the awareness is centered…?
Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 2, 10:31 AM · #
About half the people doing 3s in my shala are women!
Anyway, FBH. For me, there were two fundamental differences between Supta K and Dwi Pada. The first one was that in Dwi Pada my bandhas woke up, as I had to use them to curl my torso so that I could slide the food behind the neck, and also to stay balanced once in it.
The second difference was in hip rotation. I require almost no rotation in Supta K. In fact, when an adjuster starts by turning my ankle out I know I’m doomed to not be put in the pose. Hamish lifts my leg UP from Kurmasana, then moves it horizontally across my body, and only as he drops it behind my neck, allows for some rotation. While for Dwi Pada, I start directly from the external rotation, trying to get the sole of my foot to my ear (as recommended by Kino) and then crouching and then pulling the foot across.
Can’t say anything about 3s FBH. I’ve tried them on the odd ocassion, but as Owl says, the magic is in the context.
Oh, and about 3s and randiness…I’d love to talk about this but can’t make myself do it so publicly. Sorry!
Posted by: V · Jul 2, 10:47 AM · #
I’m glad you can get your food behind your neck, V. Can you please get your thoughts about randiness onto my blog?
You’re anonymous here.
Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 2, 10:50 AM · #
Oh and THANKS for this about external rotation and the difference between Sup and Dwi.
I had thought the very same from working with people in Sup but I don’t understand this very well. It’s pretty difficult for me to imagine myself into others’ bodies—which is an ability that many people here do have.
Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 2, 10:52 AM · #
V, post about randiness. Dooooo it!
Owl, my comment was that I LOVE it when you do asana porn. You do some of the best asana porn.
Yeah, nothin’ ever very deep from me, tee hee….
Posted by: LI Ashtangini · Jul 2, 10:53 AM · #
.02 on Supta K: I think the orientation (ie, the face-downedness) matters entirely there. I still can’t get both ankles off the floor (that is, both feet formally FBH) without an assist, but apparently authorized instruction thinks my version is fine.
Dwi Pada, because it’s seated, calls for some super-precise balance (or pretty sick hip flexibility) that Supta K does not. I find that in the balancing Dwi Pada, I think, “Heart open, open, up and away!” while in the pressup Dwi Pada, I’m thinking, “Down, shoulders and butt down!” in order to stick the press, without rolling forward and directly into Yoganidrasana. Perhaps that’s because (as I hear it) my center of gravity is up around my chest/shoulders.
Yes, to leaving the Big FBH’s alone. I’ll probably still flirt with Bhaira once in a while, but mostly what I get there is Viswamitrasana (or whatever the 2nd pose of 3s is called these days).
It’s difficult for me to speak to pelvis/sacrum; I know that early on, when the thigh was rounding me over, I had to crank Uddiyana like sixteen monsters to get upright, and there was sometimes low back pain from rounding out, but now I attend to that early on; it’s something I can “measure” before I even take the foot back, and it’s a measure I need to pass before doing so. I can see how an increased depth of extension (f/x, Kashya vs. Eka Pada) would raise interesting new questions there.
Posted by: patrick · Jul 2, 10:57 AM · #
LOL, sorry Owl and LiAsh (good luck with moving, btw!) but I’m not ready to write about randiness publicly. These days I can’t deal with one way communication. Not you guys/girls, who write back, but the silent ones who might actually know me. The unbalance of knowledge (they know stuff about me without having ever spoken to me – I don’t even know who they are) is too much for me at this time.
Posted by: V · Jul 2, 11:05 AM · #
What’s wrong with sex? :)
Seriously, this practice as ABOUT sexual energy.
Rechanneling it, sublimating it, but definitely in any case recognizing and loving it.
I don’t know how I could get through this series every day without my sex drive.
Though Boodi claims that Hypothesis A is actually the main explanation!
Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 2, 11:17 AM · #
If Supta is “fine,” good! But there’s so much going on there, for me still. People in second who are moving in to third can usually put themselves in the full expression from face-down. There’s a lot of good stuff there.
FBH can create some of the most horrific long term injuries in this practice, according to Richard Freeman. He was citing damage to the cervical spine. I would add that FBH can put terrible pressure on the low back—especially the SI joints—if the context is not really right.
And a lot of people in 3S discover all kinds of new FBH RSI stuff over time. Especially: IT band and weird, subtle stuff in the sacrum. You really got to respect this stuff as much as the backbends or more.
ASANA PORN. THANK YOU.
Hello google.
Porn porn porn.
Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 2, 11:18 AM · #
P.S. “Sex drive” – creative energy.
Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 2, 11:32 AM · #
RSI?
Yes to the Supta K stuff, that pose is a laboratory, for sure. What I mean, specifically, by “fine” is that in most of a month in an authorized teacher’s presence, I got ONE Supta K adjustment, and that was by the room assistant, who was giving the same brilliant and intense adjustment (take the bound ankles and quite literally, heft them up, then park them on top of the head) to everyone with bound feet.
Yes, of course, to broadening “sexual energy” to its ACTUAL nature, creative energy. Yes.
Posted by: patrick · Jul 2, 12:58 PM · #
Repetitive stress injury. Too common in ashtanga. See: SI, IT band, wrists, neck, knees. Ahiiiimsa.
For this reason, I have a feeling that it often makes sense to keep students in the hip opening section of 2S until their necks are completely out of the equation. So many centimeters between being able to get there and doing it without neck stuff. Honestly, I cannot remember FBH ever creating neck sensation for me, even though it probably strengthened those muscles a lot. I have a sense, based on Richard’s lecture especially, that neck-involved FBH is hazardous for long term practice.
To give an idea of how short my legs are, the ankles don’t bind beyond the head. to get them to touch at all, I have to be in full supta k. Funny.
That adjustment is wonderful. I have been taught to sit down a bit on the upper back as well, holding the ankles up. If the SI joints can take it. Big if. For someone of my size, this is definitely hard work. And your own hips have to be SO OPEN to lean over a person and hold them in this position in a way that’s safe for the low back. Interesting how mastering supta k enables you to adjust it, in a literal sense.
Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 2, 01:08 PM · #
Owl, thank you thank you thank you!!! As a fellow short-legged, I love to hear that body proportions haven’t been an impediment to your progress.
Posted by: V · Jul 2, 01:14 PM · #
OK, I’m here! THANK YOU Owl for writing this, unsurprisingly taking it several layers deeper than I could. I’ll link this discussion on my thread.
You’ve given me plenty to think about. I definitely agree that FBH is on a level with deep backbending: in importance to the body structure, energy flow and breakdown of mental patterns; in respect commanded; in pleasure potential. In fact I almost consider them twin disciplines, or counterparts.
What is striking me most these days in my practice is how totally different each one of these poses really is. That seems obvious now, but as with the variety of backbends, it has to be experienced and felt in the body. And I still need to spell it all out to myself, but a good start has been made here with supta K vs dwi pada.
Good observation about the mula bandha. I think that is super important. What has surprised me over the last few years is that my pelvis seemed to be really unstable, and used to dislocate fairly frequently; and went through a painful process of kind of falling apart via daily samakonasana and hanumanasana (shadow yoga). Since then, I’ve gone from a foot that wouldn’t stay behind the head, all the way to third series with nary a twinge, and for the moment at least (last few years) it seems to have stabilised completely. I had at one point worried that deep-hip yoga of either kind would only serve to break me down further, until I was in constant pain and couldn’t walk. But I’ve come through the other side (unless there’s more). By the time I came to really work at FBH, it seemed that that work had been done. Mula bandha was a big part of that.
OK, I will have more to say on this later (in addition to all I’ve already spewed out on my own blog).
Posted by: susananda · Jul 2, 01:26 PM · #
Oh honey!
Short legs are a huge advantage! The thing is that the advantages are mostly in transitions. While transitions are the most beautiful aspect of ashtanga, they are fleeting, so we don’t objectify them the way we do postures. (For example, I have just learned that image-quality purna matsendrasana is going to take me a while specifically because my legs are short.)
Short legs great: jump throughs, jump backs, the bhairvasana transition, getting into and out of all the arm balances, oh so many things.
Most of all: being small in stature means that you are very easy to adjust. Taller people just don’t have the advantage of being easy for any teacher to backbend, especially. They have to do more of the work themselves.
There is an amazing teacher in a nearby town who is about 6’7’‘. I thought assisted backbending wouldn’t work, the difference between us is so great. But no… nothing has ever been more brilliant.
Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 2, 02:06 PM · #
S, There is not a lot of discussion about the kind of stuff that you and I have experienced with hip opening. The falling apart. An early teacher, with tighter hips, told me I needed to re-tighten my hips—I guess because that had kept her safe. But it’s not like that… it’s about tightening things up from the inside.
This is one aspect of “asana” (actually subtle body) that I’m willing to try to discuss even though asana-talk is difficult for me. It’s not widely understood, but is important for safety.
Maybe from a combination of deep backbending and deep FBH forward bending, sometimes advanced practitioners’ sacrums (sacrii?) will shift. Bindifry mentioned her talk with Tim Miller on this subject; my teacher talked to me about it privately; and this is what I went through beginning last April and am only healing at a deep level now (with interesting hamstring spasms as it works out and away from the center). The drop or shift in the sacrum is a huge drag, and nobody should go through it if they don’t have to. Some people might see it as a necessary structural shift. I don’t know.
In any case, some subtle stuff starts to happen when the pelvis comes apart. Maybe particularly in women, who are made to have the pelvis come apart at crucial, er, creative moments. To maintain integrity of posture and keep ourselves the fuck together, we have to find counteractions to that.
I am still at a place where the whole pelvis of an advanced practitioner seems mysterious and vaguely unmentionable. There’s so much about this region that’s sexual, creative, and tied to basic securities. Maybe advanced practitioners who have experienced the possible coming-apart of the pelvis would prefer to treat it with a wink and leave these sensations unverbalized. But… why mystify?
FBH unlocks some of this stuff and means that we hold ourselves together if we want to go on.
Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 2, 02:13 PM · #
Cool and funny! My legs are long; I can bind the ankles in Supta K, or have them bound in Dwi Pada, and almost always feel like they’re gonna slip over. Pressing out of Supta K and keeping the legs over/behind my head? Achievement.
A touchless jumpback is an ACHIEVEMENT.
Deepest paschimo EVER still has my chin about two inches from my knees unless I crank the neck way, way back.
Other challenges: passing the feet under and through in Bhuja; backbends (as stated).
It’ll take me a second to compose the advantages; surely there are some?
Posted by: patrick · Jul 2, 02:21 PM · #
H, d: By the time a [Western] yogi(ni) reaches third series, he/she has regenerated his/her previously repressed or underdeveloped innate sexuality.
Posted by: Carl · Jul 2, 04:01 PM · #
Why Mystify? I ask you.
On this Ashtanaga brochure of yours, there has not been a mention of increased libido – this has been kept a dirty secret, or some subtle wink! Surely as you have pointed out, this is a big selling feature! And folks so bashful too, and some not. Its all so very human, I am deeply moved.
Posted by: Gregor · Jul 2, 04:07 PM · #
Of all the places on the internet to find libido-enhancement and just better sex, ashtanga is the best method for the long term. I didn’t mention that?
It’s partly due to the mechanism Carl has pinned (thank you for that better expression of my Hypothesis B).
But Gregor, I don’t want to do a bait-and-switch on you.
The primary series is hard. It sometimes takes a while to get down to the alchemical stuff.
No time to lose!
Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 2, 07:11 PM · #
There is definitely something to Carls’s H,d.
I wish I’d hit 3rd series ten years ago.
Posted by: susananda · Jul 2, 08:55 PM · #
Yes, what ARE the advantages to long legs and height? It’s really really fun when long legs are paired with disproportionally short arms!
Posted by: LI Ashtangini · Jul 3, 06:17 AM · #
Geez, now I’m on the jones to get started on third series. I didn’t even finish first today.
Posted by: Carl · Jul 3, 08:31 AM · #
I just re-read your B hypothesis and I guess I did sort of paraphrase you. I didn’t get what you said the first time though. Sexual repression and non-development aren’t unique to women. But I guess you do state specifically that your blog entry is about women.
I recently read yet another interesting book on Taoist sexual concepts. This one addresses practices and concepts specific to women, however. I understand that most tao-lit is male-centric, though it’s often applied generically to both sexes. This revelation has caused me to wonder about how yoga is taught and whether men and women should approach yoga in ways that are unique to their sex. But then it occurred to me that yoga is applied according to an individual’s unique approach to life. If not in the beginning, then at least by some point in one’s practice. Somewhere along the line, sex-specific yoga adaptations get rolled in. I guess you state that here too!
I wonder if New Moons inspire me to paraphrase everything.
Posted by: Carl · Jul 3, 08:45 AM · #
Hi (0v0)
Wow, I had read Susananda referring to this post on FBH poses. It’s great. But it need not be about women. I think the same identical things happen to guys, at least to me. Happy 4th of July in Oregon.
hugs
Arturo
Posted by: arturo · Jul 3, 12:05 PM · #
You’ve mentioned this sacrum mobility before but I don’t understand quite what you mean. How is it mobile? Are you saying that your illio-sacral joints allow your sacrum and illia to shift with respect to each other? This sounds like it would cause some disconcerting sensations.
Posted by: Carl · Jul 3, 03:40 PM · #
Doh. No, you didn’t mention THAT!
But you did send me that horrible link with the advanced series pics, I nearly fainted.
Why does it seem there is always this ‘suffering’ before reaching ‘bliss’.
:)
Yeh happy J4. We had J1 in Canada already!
Posted by: Gregor · Jul 3, 05:13 PM · #
Carl, yes. Plus it can make a very loud, crunchy noise which I find quite scary!
Posted by: V · Jul 3, 06:55 PM · #
Yeah, one side of the sacrum pops out of place and ‘disconcerting sensations’ is more like searing pain and difficulty walking..
Posted by: susananda · Jul 3, 09:34 PM · #
I meant one of the ilia, duh. In my case it was always the right one.
Posted by: susananda · Jul 3, 09:36 PM · #
It is a clunk clunk noise…Owl and I were just talking about this.
In person.
Heh, heh.
I know you’re all jealous:)
Posted by: Susan · Jul 5, 09:22 AM · #
Is there anyone else tall doing 3s? Espeically, women? All the people I know doing it are women who are 5’2”. 3 at my shala, one somewhere in lala land. :)
I’m 5’10” and I’m mostly legs and I really don’t expect a lot out of myself for the arm balances as there’s just too much to lift up there – the transitions don’t seem possible no matter how big my guns are. But I’m just curious – who in their 20s to 40s, right now, is tall and doing third??? ANYbody????
Posted by: katie · Jul 8, 12:40 PM · #
My friend Gary is – have just sent him the link so that he can comment if he wishes so.
Posted by: V · Jul 9, 02:02 AM · #
Here is what Gary has to say (sent by email):
I agree with 0v0 that short legs are an advantage. I am 6ft 1 and have long legs and arms. I cannot jump through with straight legs and 3S is a challenge with so much weight to life. Actually karandavasana was the biggest challenge and it took me about 3 years to do it fully with relative ease ie coming back out.
As for LBH IMO this is a combination of longer legs is better but having naturally externally rotating hips is even better. For the rest, the flexibility increases the more I do passive postures like pigeon in the evening. It continually amazes me how much I can keep on flexing the hip rotators. And yes, I would agree that the 3S LBH work is an increase or advance on the 2S postures. Particularily Durvasana the standing posture. I dream about standing up straight in that.
Regarding libido – well I don’t think 3S increases it – it just tires me out. I think 2S is where the action is because of the nerve opening. But I am only half way through 3S, just split. Not sure of the rest.
Posted by: V · Jul 9, 02:31 AM · #
Thanks V (and Gary) – glad to hear the perspective, it sounds similar to mine.
I just asked for eka pada bakasana today and received it – definitely a challenge. I could barely make my legs clear the floor in ‘b’ – they are just too long. :) An advantage in backbending, a disadvantage here, for certain.
Posted by: katie · Jul 10, 05:49 PM · #