INSIDEOWL: Cutting Through The Internet

Cutting Through The Internet · 28 July 2010

Hello. I have an idea.

Being the arrogant book-skimmer the internet has made me, I tell myself that I know what Cutting Through Spiritual Materialsm is about.

But the truth is I’ve only torn through pieces of this book in brooding little fits, usually when some LA or Mysore bliss monkey has raided my house and run off with my faith in humanity. You too?

CTSM is the most famous of many heart-rending screeds by Chogyam Trungpa, whose student Pema Chodron’s work says the same thing, but more nicely.

Trungpa describes spiritual materialism as a neurotic, delusional self-improvement project aimed at adorning the ego. “The problem,” he writes,” is that the ego can convert anything to its own use, even spirituality.”

He drank himself to death, by the way. “Mindfully.” And he brought the Vajrayana to the west, helped found Naropa, and built Nova Scotia's Gampo Abbey... the place where my own practice was first sliced open to its delusional core.

Most libraries, public and educational, will have CTSM; and it’s cheap from Shambala or any online retailer. The entire thing is also online at Google Books, thanks to dark activities taking place in the basement here at the University of Michigan library.

Who wants to join me really reading this book? It’ll go quickly because Trungpa’s insults are grease lightning and then afterwards his conspirational, lovey passages slosh right in to the ego-wounds. All in all, reading Trungpa is incredibly gratifying, both to the angry self or the lonely one, but maybe also to the parts of us that are wisest.

I am not just asking those of you I know, though I really hope you’ll all read this with me because I think it will be hilarious and maybe make us remember, again, the ways we adore each other. Let's do this. I’m also asking people who might just be happening by, or who just started reading, and even people—whoever you are—who are reading but somehow feel you shouldn’t be.

Are you in? Please drop a comment or an email. I have no preference about pacing or when we start – could read it all in a week, or do a chapter a month, or whathaveyou. Just let me know what you like.

Posted by (0v0)
Categories: arbitrage , self-deception , spirituality

Previous entry: Vibration I / Next entry: CTSM Chapters 1-3: Transcendental Common Sense

Comment

I’m in.

I’ve been reading your blog for a couple years…love it. Keep writing.

Christine

Posted by: Christine · Jul 28, 12:34 PM · #
Trungpa drank himself to death? Ahem… I’ll check it out & read a few reviews. Am just into a novel actually, for a nice change – The Inheritance of Loss. Am enjoying it immensely already.

Posted by: boodiba · Jul 28, 12:53 PM · #
I want to say ‘I’m in’ but I’ll need to peruse it a bit first. My attention span for books has been very short this summer. ‘Green Eggs and Ham’ might be more my speed…

Posted by: Kai · Jul 28, 01:00 PM · #
Its around here somewhere…!

If there is drinking to death I am in!
If not I am still in, I love reading groups. one chapter a month is fine with me if we have to meet at your house. I can bring rhubarb ginger crumble (vegan). Or if purely an online experience, probably a chapter a week, sans crumble. Alas.

Posted by: Gregor · Jul 28, 01:48 PM · #
In, (naturally).

Posted by: RE · Jul 28, 02:45 PM · #
Intrigued. And it is available at my library… 250pp including illustrations. I think I can handle that.

Posted by: Wombat · Jul 28, 03:13 PM · #
@ Kai – smile!

Posted by: boodiba · Jul 28, 03:49 PM · #
Yeah, there are pictures!

Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 28, 03:54 PM · #
love this & love having something to look forward to when i get home. still in the warm hug that is mysore but home soon, i’m in. remembering again ‘the ways we adore each other’, what a gorgeous way of putting it.

Posted by: rebecca · Jul 28, 08:37 PM · #
Great idea! I’m in on the book circle. I’ve been following along here for a while now — thanks, ovo.

Jeremy

Posted by: Jeremy · Jul 28, 10:22 PM · #
I am interested in participating (and can get the book form my local independent book shop in 8 days) but would like to know more about how this will work. How will we communicate (astral planing or some other version of communication)? I also worry that I will yet again feel overwhelmed and in awe of all the really brainy people and their amazing comments and will come across as a voyeuse from the corner as I will have nothing to say.

Posted by: fatou2002 · Jul 29, 03:17 AM · #
I’ll play.

Posted by: karen · Jul 29, 04:31 AM · #
Currently have nose in The Myth of Freedom but can back up to CTSM which begins vol. 3 of the collected.

Posted by: patrick · Jul 29, 05:19 AM · #
I’m in although I’m certain it will be over my head.

Posted by: LI Ashtangini · Jul 29, 10:09 AM · #
This is exciting. ;-) Greetings to the delurkers, by the way.

There are questions of where, when, how and who.

WHO:

I am thinking about 10-15 participants. We can easily do this like a seminar, and with my sense of how our online dynamic works, less than 10 might make for too much convergence on perspective whereas anymore than 15 might make us not want to bother with really listening and speaking to one another.

So far, Christine, Gregor, RE, Wombat, Rebecca, Jeremy, Karen and Patrick are yes. That’s 8.

Liza and LiAsh are sort of yes, with reservations that are indeed adorable. Between you, that’s 1.5.

Linda and Kai are still deciding. Linda, I need you on this! and Kai, my sense is that this is sort of the same book as Green Eggs and Ham. You two, let me know where you’re at.

If we still need others to get to a good number, I’ll invite some people. Any others from this venue, before I do that?

WHEN: Rebecca needs to get back stateside, others are getting the book. I like Gregor’s idea of a chapter at a time. What about coming together to discuss Chapter one in a week or two?

Where and how to follow…

Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 29, 11:55 AM · #
in. have the text. have read parts here and there. have the ability to separate the message from the messenger.

Posted by: e&sj · Jul 29, 03:17 PM · #
Hi ovo, I’ll give it a go. I am sure Trungpa would have a right giggle if he knew i volunteered here, so, im in.

Posted by: shaf · Jul 30, 01:14 AM · #
I’m in too – just ordered copy from Amazon so will have it in a day or two.

Posted by: Louise · Jul 30, 01:27 AM · #
I am out, just received my teaching load for the semester and looks like I will have lots of reading material till October.More luck with the next book, I hope.

Posted by: fatou2002 · Jul 30, 04:54 AM · #
I want to play, Owlieowl.

Posted by: Rebecca · Jul 30, 06:37 AM · #
Excellent!

Fatou, I will miss you because actually as a cultural anthropologist and major journal editor and sometime-analyst of commodification, and as someone whose experience covers the Anglo tradition, eastern Europe and Africa, you’re better informed than all the rest of us about certain things relevant to SM. It would have been fun finding ways to sneak around your emotional block on this brilliance. I am a sucker for that kind of play; and you’re right. If this conversation is good, maybe will read more manifestoes later.

Meantime. OK!

REBECCA STARDUST
REBECCA MYSORE
LOUISE
SHAF
E&SJ
KAREN
PATRICK
LI-ASH
CHRISTINE
JEREMY
GREGOR
RE
WOMBAT
(0v0)

BOO, what say you? KAI?

Otherwise, this group is full. I can imagine a few snipers hitting on the comment stream at times, but that could only improve the quality of our discussion by upping the stakes. Thus dive-bombers and lurkers are welcome, even though the seminar is closed. The in-group boundary is mostly meant to do inclusionary work, so that those of us who are in will participate fully. And so that we won’t have to listen to people who haven’t done the reading.

Everybody else ordered the book?

If you’re in transit, the whole thing is available here.

E&SJ brings up a good question. Trungpa the man may stand in the way of the message. It’ll be interesting to see how different ones of us feel about the consciousness we sense behind the prose. Here is the sketchiest of video intros. In the context of asking what is the use of this critique, maybe I will say a bit more about Trungpa after we finish the book. There is an incredibly destabilizing interview about him that we could read together after the book.

One thing to keep in mind is that each of us is an avatar here. Might be interesting to get a sketch of the other avatars, and also to crystallize what might be your own perspective on all this. At this point, what do you feel about this book? Just a word or two. If you would like to say a little bit about where you are and what you practice, please do.

Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 30, 08:00 AM · #
Hi. I am (0v0). I live in Michigan. I am interested in contemporary spirituality and the possibilities and limitations of using traditional practices to grow as a human. My feeling about this book is a combination of (1) evil interest in what may be a withering no-way-out critique that could delegitimate the entire enterprise of modern yoga and (2) fear that I’ll actually disagree with the critique if it views human possibility so narrowly that meaningful personal development is ruled delusion. So: I’ve been afraid to read this book closely both because I don’t want to agree too much and because I don’t want to disagree because it turns out disappointingly stupid.

Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 30, 08:05 AM · #
Just looked over the book. It’s 15 short chapters. I suggest we read the short Intro and Foreword plus Chapters 1-3 by next Friday. Friday or Saturday, I’ll post a short summary of that material plus a question or three. And we’ll use the comment thread to talk.

I thought about migrating this to a forum, but the book is short and sweet. Seems better to avoid a software that expects complexity and have a single conversation in a central location. Seminars and book clubs are always a bit arbitrary. Fifteen people read whole book, then get together and have just two or three hours of discussion. Not everything gets said – instead people converge on some interesting questions, debate a bit, and call it day. Seems to me a single comment thread mirrors that mode.

I also like the idea of archiving here, where I own the domain and my brother owns the server.

Sound good?

Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 30, 08:21 AM · #
Hi, I am Fatou and am truly grateful your kind words :-) Owl, you’re too sweet, and you know it.
Have fun in the club, y’all.

Posted by: fatou2002 · Jul 30, 08:23 AM · #
All sounds good!, so we are to read to the end of chapter 3 by August 6th, that seems do-able, though I might be finishing it on the train going to the Isle of Mull. Sad, I know.
Being un-materialistic, I am borrowing it from the library. I r o n y !

Intro
I am Gregor, from Toronto, via Scotland. I am studying to be an Integral Coach, and this book has been mentioned zillions of times by some of the teachers connected to Ken Wilber. I certainly have come to my spiritual practice in ‘some’ way, as an ego protection, and the more I see that, the more it drops off. This drop-off by ‘viewing the unconscious in action’ has been helped by many years of Jungian analysis and shadow work. So I will bring all this to bear on my reading, as well as attempting to ‘see as’ the writer, as best I can.
And, I am really looking forward to sharing and grokking with everyone.

Posted by: Gregor · Jul 30, 09:48 AM · #
Yes, the plan sounds cool.

I’m Patrick: human incarnation of the principle of trial and error, love child of Otto Muehl and Wolfgang Gullich, New England transplant to Indiana with a San Fran soul, ‘pataphysician, more ordinarily found as a PhD teaching a 4/4 art history load to art students, with a 1-year-old in tow; able to avoid periods at will, I spend much of my time at high rpm’s seeking anything that promises to mellow out my reaction to my own life conditions. So there :)

Posted by: patrick · Jul 30, 10:52 AM · #
Ahem excuse me for one minute: GREGOR I’M FROM SCOTLAND TOOOOOOO!!! AND I LOOVE MULL!!! OMIGADOMIGADOMIGAD.
Ahem.

Hi, I’m Rebeccastardust. I live in Los Angeles. I like meat and night the wilderness and plants and yin things. And words and colours and critical thinking. And I hate the word spiritual.

ps. From now on I’ll be Bek so as to not get all confused with RebeccaMysore up there.

Posted by: Rebecca · Jul 30, 12:10 PM · #
Hi. I’m Karen, from Scottsdale, AZ, via Boston, New York and Silicon Valley. I think I first heard about Trungpa from Allen Ginsberg, who was one of my advisors in grad school. Allen didn’t mention that Trungpa was an asshole, if I remember correctly — but that being said, he didn’t say Gregory Corso was an asshole, and I know for a fact he was because he subbed one of Allen’s classes and was drunk and misogynistic. Still, I got over my problem with authors as assholes early on, via Ezra Pound and T.S. Eliot. I don’t envy the assholes, and wouldn’t want to be one in my next life. I’d prefer to be a bird.

Posted by: karen · Jul 30, 12:42 PM · #
Hi – I am. And so are you.
I picked that name when yahoo e-mail first came out about ’98 and I was impressed by the Brahmaviharas of loving kindness, wisdom, Equanimity&SympatheticJoy. I was new to Buddhism, yoga and the internet and didn’t get that that would be pretty unmanageable e-mail address and an even harder practice to put into a daily life experience. I live in Santa Monica, CA. I try to do astanga vinyasa when the body is willing (which is getting less and less frequent) and cafeteria style meditation and theological readings. I spent a weekend last month staring at the Chogyam’s throne for 16 hours and hearing one of his idolators wax expansively on the great teachers in that tradition and their miracle workings. I was not converted and was, in fact, was a bit annoyed.
Posted by: e&sj · Jul 30, 03:28 PM · #
and I have no idea why my font size is out of control. It is not intentional.

Posted by: e&sj · Jul 30, 03:30 PM · #
Hmm. I’m Wombat, currently live in Hawaii by way of California (north, middle, and south), DC suburbs, and Michigan. My upbringing was mainstream Protestant from which I briefly diverged into evangelical, before abandoning all that. I’m a scientist, and our animal nature informs my thinking on pretty much everything. I’m working to abandon the idea of meaning, but it is difficult. I practice ashtanga sometimes consistently, sometimes less so. My initial reaction to this book (Owl’s description, as I haven’t yet gotten to the library) is “what’s wrong with self-improvement?” I’m a bit utilitarian when it comes to things “spiritual” (in scare-quotes for Bek), because I think it’s ultimately biological. But book groups are fun, and I’m much more likely to read something when it’s participatory (we are social animals), so off we go.

Posted by: Wombat · Jul 30, 04:22 PM · #
Oh, and today was my very first ever Mysore class. The assimilation has begun.

Posted by: Gregor · Jul 30, 05:08 PM · #
I’m Shaf, I’m a bit sceptical. Frankly I think we’re on a hiding to nothing if we’re looking to derive meaning from a book that is essentially a collection of lectures thrown together. It would have been hard enough in a lecture theatre filled with people hungry for change for Trungpa to pass on his illuminated thoughts and I’m not sure that the beauty of his words can translate from his lecture hall via a book and become lodged effectively into our consciousness. A collective consciousness called for and presented this man called Trungpa via youthful excitement in a time where an air of exuberance prevailed. I bet you all one thing – in those lecture theatres there was a symbiotic relationship going on between Trungpa and his audience and something beautiful was born and I reckon it’s that wave that still carries the book today and that’s why the book is deemed a classic today and that’s why we’re about to read it. But im an optimist – I don’t doubt that my psyche has presented this book courtesy of ovos blog for a reason other than for it to be grabbed firmly – lets say an opportunity to learn the lessons my spiritual path needs to learn. I reckon this book can be a quality springboard for a new insight if we start by simply answering why our psyche presents us with such an opportunity.

First i heard of Trungpa or CTSM for that matter was ovo’s blog, I’ve skimmed the foreword by his son from google books, I wanted to write my initial gut thoughts down before I read anymore and ovo, all, more than a word or two here but I cant apologise. Night all, it’s late here, I’ve got a criminal ashtanga class in the morning.

Posted by: shaf · Jul 30, 05:34 PM · #
Like times nine. I will refrain from moderating because I’m currently experiencing the same problem I have leading half-primaries at the local all-purpose yoga studio: any ad-lib commentary can and will be infused with inappropriate levels of affection. Please carry on…

Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 30, 06:23 PM · #
oxoxo
oops
ovo

Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 30, 06:25 PM · #
Karen, SERIOUSLY, Allen Ginsberg?

Bah, I really hate doing these but since I love Owl here goes. I’m LIAshtangini. Originally from Florida (fifth generation, heh), then Brooklyn, then LA and now Long Island (which I LOVE.....). Raised in the fundamentalist Baptist tradition which I promptly abandoned at the age of about 14 (it has, however, left its mark). I work in IT for a living so hopefully I will bring a touch of annoying logic, a dose of skepticism and a great deal of sarcasm to the analysis of this book, which I would NEVER read on my own, btw. Oh, have practiced for about 4 1/2 years. Crap, has it been that long already….?

Posted by: LI Ashtangini · Jul 31, 03:50 AM · #
dear 0v0, it’s something i would be interested in, since a book by Trungpa was my first Buddhist book (i bought it in my teenage years) and i love Pema’s books. but recently i have very little time to do hardly anything but work. i just worked 10 hours on a Saturday and will work as many tomorrow Sunday. it’s just the way it is at the moment. it’s bedtime and i need to study my Mandarin. i do think aobut other interpretations of the words “spiritual materialism”, thinking of you, when i ask myself if my recent whoompf of interest in many things – language, my career, work – is all a type of materialism. it happens at the expense of my meditation practice. well, that’s enough navel gazing in your space. big hug.
Arturo

Posted by: arturo · Jul 31, 06:12 AM · #
me carry on? sorry all i am new to blogosphere book reading etiquette. Lets hear everyone first :-)

Posted by: shaf · Jul 31, 06:42 AM · #
can i be the janitor at this unique seminar? i’ll dump the waste basket from time to time and read the xeroxed copy of the book.

one year ago, i completed my MA in creative writing at naropa university, chogyam trungpa’s 100 year vision which, due to recent events, may have been a miscalculation on his part. that’s ok, i have a hard time with math too— and it’s even harder when your fingers appear too blurry to count on. dematerializing, etc. trungpa’s legacy is both curious and confused, i think, but definitely something to be reckoned with.

karen, did you do time at naropa as well?

Posted by: Sara · Jul 31, 07:22 AM · #
Well Sara, seeing as though I am both curious and confused, I should do just fine. I’m RE, living in Los Angeles and working to be kind, honest, open and strong, (in all facets of my life). Religion/spirituality wasn’t something that was in my home growing up, so I’m a blank slate here.

Posted by: RE · Jul 31, 08:27 AM · #
hi, I’m Louise, based in the UK, ashtanga practitioner although recently feeling that this is just a stepping stone leading somewhere else (meditation starting to get a hold)...

I know nothing about this book, except that its theme is one of the most fundamental that can possibly be addressed. I recently went to a community philosophy group where we discussed whether or not the pursuit of truth can be disinterested – I imagine this book will get right to the intractable nub of the question.
In my practice my ego is putting on the most farcical show of images and scenarios. Sometimes its grip feels fatal, other times I retain hope…
This book, and this discussion, will hopefully help us get to know a little better this shard of glass stuck in our eyes and distorting our vision…

Posted by: Louise · Jul 31, 08:38 AM · #
Shaf, a bit of the etiquitte you mention: the “carry on” was to the whole group.

Usually I do address comments to people by just responding next to them in the thread, but in this case, if we’re addressing particular people, let’s just do so by starting a paragraph off with the person’s name (like the above paragraph addressed to Shaf).

All else sounds great! Others…?

Posted by: (0v0) · Jul 31, 03:13 PM · #
RE: curious and confused is a pretty hot cocktail! one of my favorite (spontaneous) poems by trungpa iterates why it is good to have a stone— as in, a stone— for a best friend.

a stone!

Posted by: Sara · Jul 31, 05:46 PM · #
I have a stone that’s a pretty good friend; I sleep with it every night. Sometimes it falls out of my hand when I’m sleeping but it usually ends up nuzzled next to me somewhere, or sometimes even in the middle of my chest or back depending on which side I am sleeping.

I know nothing about this book either. I think the furthest I got into reading about anything related to, erm, ‘spirituality’, the nature of the universe, or, Buddhist thought, was half of a Ken Wilber book (is he a Buddhist), who my friend at Naropa (Sara, do you know Feliz? She studied creative writing there too.) recommended. Luckily she retracted her recommendation around the same time as I decided I wasn’t as interested in reading about the nature of reality as I was in exploring it myself.

Posted by: Rebecca · Jul 31, 09:56 PM · #
Oh! Can I still join please Owl or do I have to be a sniper?? (in that case I would not waste an introduction). Found it in google reader. Great idea!
xx

Posted by: susananda · Aug 1, 03:38 AM · #
Jeremy here – I play piano, teach music and practice the ashtanga yoga in Trondheim, Norway. I was raised fundamentalist protestant on the great plains of Kansas, and, like Wombat, went through a brief evangelical phase before leaving organized religion altogether. These days I’m interested in how the basic mystical experience informs how we operate day-to-day in our relationships and work and other music-making.

I’m following along on Google books until I get my own copy :)

Posted by: Jeremy · Aug 1, 06:04 AM · #
I’ll do it if I can find the book. I live in Virginia, teach writing, write, run, do ashtanga. I think I read this book years ago, and have heard about it a good long while. It’ll be fun to read and see what others think.

Posted by: Tara · Aug 1, 07:07 AM · #
Wow, what a wonderful experience, Jeremy, parallel to Susan’s and my own in certain ways. For new readers, if it’s interesting, I grew up on a ranch in an extremely poor part of rural Montana. My father, who my practice has enabled me to adore and understand as my inspiration in certain ways, was a rugged wilderness guide who changed professions during my (turbulent) childhood and became a strict, dogmatic Christian fundamentalist preacher. This goes a long way toward explaining why the ashtanga system pushed my buttons, and also why it's gotten me over myself a little bit. Some day, I want to start writing about the fact that the “Ranch” we lived on was actually a residential mental hospital for “emotionally disturbed” and violent youth (google "Yellowstone Boys and Girls Ranch"). But now that I am finally ready to do that (thank you, Owl Whisperer), I still need to wait until my father retires as the organization's preacher.

Sara and Susan. We have not heard back from Kai and Boodiba, so you may join this group formally in their places.

Gratuitous, inappropriate, deeply uncool and potentially annoying love and excitement about all this,

(0v0)

And carry on…

Posted by: (0v0) · Aug 1, 07:07 AM · #
Irrelevant owl shapeshifter vid.

Posted by: (0v0) · Aug 1, 07:45 AM · #
Hi – I commented that I wanted to join and had ordered the book, but apparently the comment didn’t go through (I thought it was in moderation). If my place has already been given away, that’s okay, though. Just thought I’d chime in…

Posted by: Kai · Aug 1, 09:47 AM · #
kai— i’ll participate from the sidelines and comment only when i can resist. the space is yours!

Posted by: Sara · Aug 1, 09:59 AM · #
Would have loved being a part of this but simply too much to do at work, im out.

Ovo many thanks for writing this post.

Posted by: shaf · Aug 3, 04:20 AM · #
No worries, man. Do your work! Sara will be happy to move, Good Will Hunting- style, from Janitor to something more fully enfranchised. As if we’d have had it any other way.

All, how is the reading going? Were you able to stop after just three chapters? Hopefully so. My book is in transit from the UM library’s book-delivery elves (browsing the stacks is already obsolete here!), but I’ve yet to crack it.

Perhaps the Intro as invocation when Sara and Jamie cook dinner for the Editor and me tomorrow night?

Hrm, but then again, I’m not sure CTSM will be the right kind of savor. Last night, read some of Breath by Breath by Larry Rosenberg. Thank you, CC. Beautiful thoughts there for how vinyasa may and may not meld with anapanasati. And perhaps more poetic for midweek.

x
o
v
o

Posted by: (0v0) · Aug 3, 10:33 AM · #
Sonya, yes. Sara, no. :-) Allen was a prof at Brooklyn College when I was there (1987-1989).

How’s it going, Owl? “The lord of mind refers to the effort of consciousness to maintain awareness of itself. The lord of mind rules when we use spiritual and psychological disciplines as the means of maintaining our self-consciousness, of holding on to our sense of self. Drugs, yoga, prayer, meditation, trances, various psychotherapies — all can be used in this way.”

It’s going great! :-D

Posted by: karen · Aug 4, 04:57 AM · #
Yeah Karen, second that. Lots of quotables. And Owl, no, no WAY, was I able to halt at three chapters :D

Posted by: patrick · Aug 4, 06:00 AM · #
Karen, it was that quote that made me put my book down and run over to the computer to see if you guys had said anything about it.

It’s not exactly hard going for me, but it’s difficult for me to look past words like “spiritual”, “enlightenment”, “ego”, “negativities”. To look past them, or understand the meaning of them in the context of this book instead of the context of LA everyday language. I’m so used to throwing up barriers the second I hear somebody talk like this. A little bit of context on my part: I moved to Los Angeles without any exposure to any of this stuff. My forays into, erm, spirituality, have been earth-based, and ashtanga-practice-based, and shamanism-based. I’d never heard of enlightenment or seen the non-physical world as anything other than a part of the physical world (just slightly easier for some to see than others). So these people would keep talking about this stuff that seemed to be all fluff because it was mind-talk instead of experience-talk. Years of it. This is the first book I’ve cracked open where I’m realising that this language actually existed before the new-New Age grabbed a hold of it and strangled the life out of it.

So I’m reading it in two ways all at once: One, I’m picking apart every word and argument with a scoff and a chortle. Two, I’m reading what is being said without my superiority complex and preconceived ideas about who these people are and what it is they’re trying to say. And when I read it the first way, it’s just a bunch of shite and I don’t understand why the hell people even talk about this stuff in the first place when it’s all experiential… When I read it the second, he makes some interesting points— like the one that Karen quoted.

Posted by: rebecca · Aug 4, 07:27 AM · #
ovo dude don’t mind me I have to jump in here, I wanted to wait till I got the book but i’m following on google.

Bek hope this helps, Karen’s bought up an interesting paragraph, but to interpret I reckon what Trungpas imploring you to do when he talks of the three lords is simply to increase awareness.

Maybe sit in the landscape that is your consciousness then survey everything you see rather like a jumped up lord considering his kingdom from an ivory tower. Now its from this viewpoint that the ego can be drawn out by simply being aware – at this point the ego is at its weakest as its here the ego reveals itself to the mindful person – your ego is smart and your ego is cunning but its in everything you see. Everything you see has to be simply what your ego presents to you because there is a hell of a lot more out there than simply the few items ‘of interest’ that stand out in your psyche.

An example would be something you might find irritating – something that continuously irritates you is essentially your ego revealing itself in all its glory. Whereas an unaware person would stay in a state of irritation the mindful person would view it as an opportunity to bag the ego.

Point being that once you realise your not toothless against the ego is it can be tackled. Just a question of perspective.

Sorry all no more long comments! Is there any way to get an email when a comment comes through like on blogger?

Posted by: shaf · Aug 4, 07:37 AM · #
Bagging the ego! :-)

Rebecca, so interesting to hear about the LA-speak (or new-age-speak, for those of us outside of the LA metro area!). One way I’ve been able to dissolve my suspicion about terms/concepts has been to read old texts — it’s one thing to hear a contemporary author talk about zen (suspicion raised!); another entirely when it’s a writer from the 12th century.

And the body-experience (i.e., physical practice) is the true test, as you note!

Owl, perhaps new entries when the comments grow past a certain point?

Posted by: karen · Aug 4, 08:59 AM · #
RebeccaofScotland,
Aye, its guid to be suspicious! Them buddhists have a great philosophy on how to become aware: to have great faith, great doubt and great determination. Sounds like Scots history to me, but there ye go!

Now then some snippet notes:
P6 Lord of Mind, the old idea that your the owner and you have left your house in the charge of the butler, who now orders everyone around and thinks he’s in charge. Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to regain your rights. But who are you? And who is this butlerm and when did he get the job, and anyway you are the butler! Thats why you dont want to lose your job! Silly human!

P16. Pitting one philsophy agains the other. Nice! Identifying with form, not, ahem, experience!

p25. Love that ‘one beautiful object’ stuff. I think I will stop now, as I am fully enlightened. No really, that was so good!

Pity he doesn’t say more on the instinct to choose the one object. Does not speak of instinct. Not many do.

Surrendering to real communication, to a spiritual friend, an equal, with a different persepctive. To withold projection. This is good stuff about personal responsibility, and the beginning of real ego development – own your own stuff.

Some real gems here. Wish I read this before I got into that cult for 13 years, but there you go. But then again, I got my own internal guru through being exposed to a negative external guru. Interesting take on that, makes me feel good reading that chapter.

Oh and this I found very helpful

Posted by: Gregor · Aug 4, 12:32 PM · #
I’m a bit behind on the introduction…no computer for a few days. I’m a Floridian transplant from the midwest, practice Ashtanga and play as a biologist in my day job. I have only a vague memory of someone mentioning this book and am intrigued.

Posted by: Christine · Aug 4, 12:57 PM · #
Finally received my copy. This is juicy stuff! I sailed through the first three chapters and was tempted to read more, but instead I’m re-reading in an effort to capture the stuff that my mind didn’t glom on to the first time.

I’m having tonnes of lightbulb moments. I don’t think I have an ‘antique shop’ as much as a basement storage room containing all of the items that I thought were nifty, but turned out to be too complicated or difficult to understand or accept. I’m guilty of spiritual ‘impulse purchases’ and shopping for bargains.

p30: “We develop the conviction that whatever we experience is part of our spiritual development.”

Hm. Guilty as charged!

Posted by: Kai · Aug 4, 01:40 PM · #
Are we really supposed to pour over this book? CTSM was conceived in a lecture theatre and should be treated as such. Trungpa invites us to a new way of thinking with a crazy idea called ‘first thought best thought’ if ever there was a perfect remedy to western thought process, I reckon that’s it. My interpretation is that he’s just asking us to trust in our subconscious, it’s the daytime to our conscious nightime and we were given both faculties for a reason. I feel skim it once, have a tea then see what comes up. More time? leave the words alone and look at the pictures! I’m guessing they are a big hint for us to stop over analysing the words.

Posted by: shaf · Aug 5, 03:56 AM · #
See, Kai? As 0v0 said, it’s pretty much the same book as Green Eggs and Ham :D

Big kicks here out of the Q+A, reducing the collection, and openness/surrender. Will try to restrain commentary on the later chapters (yeah, bad academic; reading ahead on summer vacation), but will simply suggest that chewy ideas early snowball into mindblowers later.

My tendency re: ego has never been to “do anything” to it, but simply to leave it alone as much as I’m able (same policy I have with Christianity). As an advisor put it years ago, to “not feed that wolf” (again, as much as I’m able to do so).

Posted by: patrick · Aug 5, 06:27 AM · #
But any time one says, “I am…” that’s shoring up the ego, whether that’s I am an Ashtangi, academic, businessperson, artist, good wife, bad son, angry right this minute, disappointed with US political policies, feeling blissful, enlightened. I can’t think of any word or concept that could fill in that blank after “I am” that isn’t creating something that likes to think it’s somewhat stable.

Posted by: karen · Aug 5, 06:35 AM · #
Don’t be hard on yourself just leave it as “i am”

Posted by: shaf · Aug 5, 07:32 AM · #
Yeah, but what’s “I”? That’s such a curious question.

Posted by: karen · Aug 5, 07:48 AM · #
If you want to know give away everything you own (preferably to me) and i will answer that for you.

Posted by: shaf · Aug 5, 08:23 AM · #
I’m not sure if the ego shores itself up via “I am”; later (warning, spoiler alert) CT is going to say that the ego is not an actor, but the mental actions themselves (or words closely to that effect; I can cite a page number if needed). Agreed that “I” is a really curious question, but any time I’ve done anything specifically “against” the ego, it whips my butt, first round, no contest. Better, I think (use of “I” noted) to just act against self-interest, against “collecting” against what’ll later be called “speed and aggression” (ok, spoilers ending here).

Shaf, nice one!

Posted by: patrick · Aug 5, 06:03 PM · #
That curious question is one way to enlightenment.

Posted by: shaf · Aug 5, 06:34 PM · #
hi everyone

Having read the first three chapters, some questions definitely jump out…
The chapter on the Guru is the one I found most problematic. The idea of total openness – if that were possible why would the guru be needed, and wouldn’t enlightenment already be achieved? Isn’t total openness impossible, and the role of the guru, as of the friend, to see what we can’t see in ourselves (just as we can return the favour)? For that relationship to be necessary, there have to be these blind spots and self-opacities…otherwise what’s the gaze of the other needed for?

Again, not so sure about the idea of turning teachings into freshly baked bread and beaten gold…isn’t it sometimes worthwhile (and ego-obstructing) to ‘inscribe oneself within the form of the alien and foreign’ – eg, chanting in Sanskrit without understanding the ‘meaning’...Isn’t a little alienation, a little opacity, sometimes just what this is all about?
Karen, I’m also not sure whether the body experience, the physical practice, is the true test of the lived integration of teachings. Maybe if we find it difficult – injuries probably tell no lies – but what about if the body lends itself easily to the practice? Interesting to speculate about the lies of the body, and its susceptibility to capture by the Lord of Form just as the mind is captured by the Lord of Speech…

Posted by: Louise · Aug 6, 07:08 AM · #
Hmmm. Interesting. The idea of the body might be susceptible to the Lord of Form (Yoga Journal!), but the body itself is proof positive that the body isn’t stable. It disintegrates, one way or another. I wasn’t thinking asana, necessarily, for physical practice. Just meant bringing awareness to the body. Awareness of the impermanence, specifically. Perhaps this’d be a particularly difficult proposition for those who have an easy (physical) time of it?

Posted by: karen · Aug 6, 01:54 PM · #
I was wondering how long it would take for the words ‘Yoga Journal’ to show up here…....

Posted by: LIAshtangini · Aug 6, 05:41 PM · #
Oops.Sorry,S! :-)

Posted by: karen · Aug 6, 08:00 PM · #
Sorry again: I just woke up with a thought.

Wrapping up this first week, I have a thought specifically about Ashtanga practice and its structure. I fall for the illusion that I am “getting somewhere,” because daily practice “improves” the postures.

I had coffee with a yogini friend this week and she said “I want my practice to keep improving.” It caught my attention, because I could hear that the word “improving” needed air quotes or an asterisk, but even if we all understand this, the nature of the practice is sequential, so there’s a strong feeling of moving forward, of getting somewhere.

I guess that forward momentum may be a tool to see through the illusion of forward momentum? Tough project! I mean how seductive is forward momentum?! Ah, well. Eventually the forward momentum stops. I suppose it’s then a case of 1) you have no idea you’re on a moving sidewalk you’ve invented in your own mind, so crash off at the end, or 2) you know about the moving sidewalk and enjoy the ride, but are ready to step off when it ends.

Posted by: karen · Aug 7, 06:12 AM · #
!!!

Just catching up with everyone here. Finished the reading just now and have to go teach for a little bit. More this afternoon…

Posted by: (0v0) · Aug 7, 06:31 AM · #
Karen, I think there’s a strange dichotomy here. Movement is good because it implies a lack of stagnation. Stagnation is bad because it means death.

Or, movement is good because it is one of the laws of the universe: everything changes constantly. To resist change is to become rigid in the face of fluidity.

On the other hand, to move to escape where one is at present is in reality resisting the is-ness of things too. For example when I try to get into supta and think “Grrr I’m gonna get it today” instead of possible “This is interesting, look at what my body can do today”. One is resisting the nature of things, wanting it to be different to what it is. The other is just accepting it and observing it in its changes.

In other words, I think the change part, the momentum, is the given in life :).

Posted by: Rebecca · Aug 7, 07:30 AM · #
Into the middle of the Karen-Rebecca bit:

wait, movement/stagnation? what if it were movement/stillness (hi, erich schiffmann…)?

resisting change (having done quite a bit of that in the past two years): isn’t never resisting, basically becoming totally entropic? there are martial arts metaphors to be made…sidestepping, jujitsu type moves…

Agreed to the hilt however, with anything to do with “to escape the present reality is to resist the is-ness.” That’s one of the major things I’m pulling from CT so far.

Posted by: patrick · Aug 7, 08:42 AM · #
Yes, movement/stillness, though even to posit as opposites is to step outside the back and forth flow that’s ongoing.

I think I was getting at the way the linear aspects of Ashtanga can pull me out of the present reality. Or, rather, I sometimes get caught up in the linear “getting somewhere” aspect instead of just being in the present reality. It ain’t the system doing it; it’s me.

Posted by: karen · Aug 7, 10:06 AM · #
There’s lots of perception going on with momentum, movement/stillness, I would love to hear what composers have to say about the way in which the mind perceives the motion of music. How both the consious and subconsious minds plays a part in defining the moment and the future – digressing a bit but its interesting

Posted by: shaf · Aug 7, 10:09 AM · #
Karen, I noticed a few minutes after my post that my queries about the dualist terms were themselves dualist terms :D!!

Linear ashtanga: hard/easy pose, for one. I don’t, f/x, have trouble with Garbha Pindasana but I still sort of “don’t look forward to it” because it’s hard, whereas Baddha Konasana is both easier (to set up) and harder (to settle into; for me anyway). Yes, one tries to get to “more advanced” series, but Shalabhasana? Easier than much of Primary. But this is already atomizing the system into pieces; as V put it once long ago, “I can do Virasana, so now I’m just going to start fourth series” :D

I still like a line attributed to SKPJ: Primary for everyone, Intermediate for those who need some help, Advanced for those who really do not understand.

Posted by: patrick · Aug 7, 11:25 AM · #
Well I actually meant stagnation in that case, because I was looking at it as something and not-something. Stillness doesn’t resist the natural movement of energy, whereas stagnation does. But I wasn’t speaking of movement in terms of forward momentum and stagnation as that coming to a stop, I was speaking of desire for forward momentum causing stagnation because it immediately removes one from the is-ness. I don’t think stillness does that. In fact I’d posit that it’s that balance of movement/stillness that makes our entire beautiful binary universe tick. Now I’m sounding like a cabbalist. Or someone who’s going to Chinese medical school.

And yes, I’d agree about non-resistance – > entropy. I don’t necessarily think that’s a bad thing though, as long as you’ve got some kind of sail and rudder rigged… no?

Posted by: Rebecca · Aug 7, 04:49 PM · #
I love this, about understanding the dynamic of stillness or stagnation (Rebecca, Patrick), about noting the seductions of movement (Karen) and how, perhaps, they are not separate from the seductions of life itself (Rebecca, Karen, implicitly Gregor). A bit in there about instinct, yes?

How is this set of considerations resonating with Chapter 2, on surrender, and the initial comments in Chapter 3, on inner knowledge and responsibility?

The question about movement in music (Shaf, implicitly Jeremy) – actually a good image. And me sitting here in the dark, listening to an almost non-lyrical section of Arvo Part.

Incidentally, if some of you were wondering, Shaf is not CATYGAY, who we have seen little of in recent months. It’s just that the two just share a gender, ethnicity, generation and thus some of their sense of humor, I suppose.

To background this discussion a bit and give others a chance to jump in with us, I’ll write a new post to summarize Chapters 1-3. E&SJ, Susan, RE, Wombat, Sara, Jeremy, RebeccaMysore, and others… more thread-space is coming.

Posted by: (0v0) · Aug 7, 05:55 PM · #
Now I’m curious to read about this Trungpa character. There’s a lot that can be rooted out from the documented experiences of seekers who self-destruct. I mean real self-destruction, not the snazzy death-of-ego, ascending into the cloudbreak sunbeams thing. though the latter is pretty neat to read about too.

But, anyway, why is transcendency above materialism necessarily a thing that an individual must accomplish within his/her discrete lifetime? Why isn’t it instead such a thing that happens by little increments? That is to say, you lift yourself up by a rung or two, or maybe by a dozen of them, and maybe one or two or a dozen people who’ve observed you somehow continue your thread and pick themselves up by increments. And so on, and so on, until few thousand years from now humans are pretty effing special. Or at least those future humans might be further toward not having the same arrogant misperceptions of individualism that we have presently. Evolution, we might call it.

Maybe CT drove himself to drinking because the big picture was at the tip of his mind, but he couldn’t quite sense it.

Posted by: Carl · Aug 16, 03:24 PM · #
Carl!!!!

Nice to see you.

And yeah… I think bringing this discussion back around to the fact that he literally self-destructed needs to happen. I have no idea what was up with that, though on his way down he did articulate a methodology of “mindful drinking.” Not joking.

Meantime, it sounds almost like you’re promoting the notion of reincarnation, or at least the persistence of ensouled consciousness. Come on now.

Also, I think you’d get a kick out of the first three chapters, which are up at Google Books.

Posted by: (0v0) · Aug 16, 04:25 PM · #
No reincarnation. No “ensouled consciousness” (I will try to figure out that one later). Quite the opposite, in fact. It seems obvious to me that spirit is in the species, not the specimen. That old time idea of reincarnation was too individualistic and too blindly selfish, I think.

I meant that we affect people around us by the way we live and interact with others. Youngsters are especially affected, and a forward thinking sort of spiritualist works at influencing future generations, not simply his own body and mind… Hir body and mind, if you prefer that…

I’m not into reincarnation, but I dig karma. People presume to relive the actions of their forebears. Karma is also a social weapon, though. Typically shortsighted, small-minded conservative types wield it unthinkingly for greatest effect, but anybody can put it to good use as a tool for social evolution.

Posted by: Carl Herbert · Aug 18, 07:40 AM · #
Nice to see you too!

Posted by: Carl Herbert · Aug 18, 07:41 AM · #