um? · 3 June 2008

Hello, fussy comment field. Will you cooperate now?

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1. Yes, working fine.

   Posted by: (0v0) · Jun 3, 04:51 PM · #

2. For real.

   Posted by: (0v0) · Jun 3, 05:05 PM · #

3. Is there a difference between self-reflection and self-criticism? Do Americans only know how to reflect by asking what needs to improve, instead of knowing how to reflect by just observing?

   Do practitioners expect yoga to make them feel good about themselves? Why?

   Is yoga-as-bad-sex more about America (images of physical perfection) than about ashtanga?

   Does ashtanga have the potential to subvert sexualized caricatures of physical beauty by holding up masters who are oblivious to that stuff?

   Is it fair to compare yoga and dance, given that most people would never be comfortable with the ego-boundary-play of wild art? Are yoga and dance both reaching for the same rarefied state, while it’s just less common for ashtangis to get there? WHY IS IT NOT MORE COMMON IN ASHTANGA?

   Posted by: (0v0) · Jun 3, 05:14 PM · #

4. Interesting. I still consider myself a dancer (14 years rigorous training Vaganova syllabus ballet, and performing) in some ways, or definitely identify as an ex-dancer, anyway. While it was absolutely joyous and passionate for me—my experiences in the studio, on stage, and even alone, while dancing my own choregraphy and playing with space—the act of dancing still felt a good deal more like the way you describe Ashtanga than the way you describe dancing.

   Technique and body awareness has so infomed even my “social dancing” that I’ve since gravitated to partner dances like Lindy Hop swing and salsa, for the context they provide. The electronic music rave dances or whatever (which is what I’m assuming you’re talking about when you talk about dancers and trancers) interest me not at all. I’m inventive and creative when I’m dancing, but in order to freestyle on something I need a point of departure. Something to comment on. Otherwise it’s the bodily equivalent for me of speaking gibberish. I just don’t get anything from it. It feels, what? Not scary or threatening or out of my comfort zone, just stupid, almost (clumsy, unkowledgable about the body and the parter’s body, artless. Like bad sex, in fact.)

   My very best days on the mat have been for me most like the Adage that is practiced at the end of most ballet classes. Muscle memory, lightness, expasiveness, and the closer I come to “perfecting” a posture, the closer I am to experiencing it as something coming through me, instead of from me. Then I am blissed out.

   Both ballet and Ashtanga made/make me feel fat sometimes. ;)

   Posted by: joy · Jun 3, 11:57 PM · #

5. “Do practitioners expect yoga to make them feel good about themselves?”

   The newbies, yes.

   “Why?”

   I can think of two reasons:

   1) Marketing and New Age popularity. You know: heal yourself, be blessed, spread the love, all of this punctuated with pictures of beautiful women sitting in Lotus with a half smile on their lips.

   2) They then go to a yoga studio and meet a teacher that looks calm and serene, and think that this person is just in a permanent state of happiness, instead of acceptance and equanimity, which is what it really is most of the time.

   Posted by: Vanessa · Jun 4, 12:33 AM · #

6. “Do [consumers] expect [consumables] to make them feel good about themselves?”

   This harkens back to some of your recent posts.

   Posted by: karen · Jun 4, 04:25 AM · #

7. Is feeling good the same as not feeling bad?

   The allieviation of suffering is a bedrock concept of samkhya-yoga.

   then again, “feel good about themselves” seems to address only half the issue (ending suffering) while missing the rather important other half (understanding what the “self” is.)

   Also…bad sex? like they say – a bad day of golf beats a good day of work! :)

   Posted by: cody · Jun 4, 06:47 AM · #

8. Yes, I wasn’t going for the consumerism thing so much. We know that lots of people practice for physical and emotional “results,” which is partly crass consumerism and partly common sense. But yes, are there other (maybe deeper and more interesting) reasons that people expect yoga to feel good about themselves?

   Does this expectation differ from newbies (Vanessa seems to get that right) and more seasoned practitioners?

   Is feeling good about yourself different from just feeling good?

   Hmm….

   This is great. I can’t believe in 18 months of blogging this is the first we’re beginning to excavate the expectations we bring to practice.

   JS… so interesting! You bring up many new thoughts! On which more in a bit…

   Posted by: (0v0) · Jun 4, 07:51 AM · #

9. “Is feeling good about yourself different from just feeling good?”

   Yes. So many of us have internalized negativity about ourselves so deeply that we can be having a perfectly good day and still have an undercurrent of self-loathe. Of course, this will erupt from time to time and we will “just feel bad”, but there are cases where it can be more insidious, like not applying for a job because we think we are not sufficiently qualified (and we are). We just skip it, not feeling particularly bad, but we are selling ourselves short because we don’t feel good about ourselves.

   Posted by: V · Jun 4, 11:25 AM · #

10. Oh wow. This is what I was not seeing. Of course. I asked the question because I was wondering why we might assume that positive emotion (or any situation, really) is “about me” or my competence or my worth or whatever. Wondering if we could just let positive emotion be about itself, about life.

    Maybe we can, as you describe, no matter who we are. Some transient, but genuine, happiness might be possible.

    But this reminds me of what many integral people, east-west philosophers, spiritual psychotherapists and western Buddhists say:

    You have to repair the ego before you can transcend the ego.

    I don’t know if getting good feelings can repair the ego, but it does seem that it could create hope, strength and courage to go about it.

    Funny, it seems like some practitioners get really inspired (because practice generates courage and stuff) to work through their personal bullshit. But others are using practice in an escapist manner, embracing an exotic form of spirituality to avoid doing the work to resolve their conflicts within themselves and with others. The contrast in intentions is so intense, and kind of obvious.

    Posted by: (0v0) · Jun 4, 11:45 AM · #

11. LOL, this is the point where I really hope you are not talking about me! :-D

    Posted by: V · Jun 4, 11:50 AM · #

12. No! Totally not! God. Definitely not.

    In fact, I was thinking about how much you responded to Tim Miller’s idea that this is a heroic practice. And figuring that this had to do with the fact that you let it take you to your edge emotionally. Not merely physically. That is what made me think that some people take practice as inspiration to go inside.

    Posted by: (0v0) · Jun 4, 11:55 AM · #

13. Yes, that short one sentence from Tim made a huge impact on me. Funny how these things happen, eh?

    Posted by: V · Jun 4, 12:05 PM · #

14. Yowza! You razz me about my modal thinking!

    I think you’ve given the dancers more introspection cred than they warrant as a group. “Free form” and “individual experience” don’t necessarily have anything to do with introspection.

    The variations of our levels of insecurities probably have less to do with our varying introspective abilities and more to do with the ways we compare ourselves to others. Though, obviously, introspection must be important to resolving insecurities.

    Perhaps the unself-aware dancers compare themselves less rigorously to those around them and yogis that obsess over minutiae compare themselves more rigorously.

    I deduce that you are not a dancer. It’s okay; some of us like to cogitate over the rules of motion ad infinitum before we cut loose like nobody’s watching. It’s all good.

    Posted by: Carl · Jun 4, 12:10 PM · #

15. V: Yes.

    Carl: Nice. Yes, maybe it’s just that ashtanga is precise and that freaks us out. Whereas dancing can be sloppy and bodies within it permitted to be sloppy as well.

    Is beauty possible within sloppiness, especially for minimalist precision-lovers like me and JS?

    Anyway, the secret is… I dance. I love the way that JS put it… that free-form gives you nothing to comment on and is like bad sex. I felt that way too, and worse, because I’m a very clumsy person whose first dance lessons at 19 were a horrible embarrassment. But something changed last fall.

    It’s hard to explain and I hesitate to discuss it here (because even if I can dance like nobody’s watching I can’t write about dance like nobody’s watching). But there is this WILD, easily-accessible state of contemplative (but also self-expressive) joy in stupid dancing. “Ecstatic dancing.”

    It is something new. It’s challenged my ideas about embodied practice and about ashtanga. About how emotions work. I don’t understand it though.

    Posted by: (0v0) · Jun 4, 12:30 PM · #

16. The comparing of ashtanga to bad sex still has me baffled. Good sex is free form too, and is perhaps even more so than is bad sex, which I probably would choose to describe as no-form or poor form.

    Kudos on the dancing. I’d go there too if only I knew how.

    Posted by: Carl · Jun 4, 12:43 PM · #

17. You’d like it.

    Maybe the bad sex comparison doesn’t work. Having never in my life experienced bad sex, I wouldn’t know.

    Posted by: (0v0) · Jun 4, 12:48 PM · #

18. I did not just write that.

    Disregard.

    Posted by: (0v0) · Jun 4, 12:49 PM · #

19. What free-form? I thought yogis were supposed to be secret breakdancers? Have I been working on my ‘worm’ and my ‘robot’ for naught all these years?

    Posted by: cody · Jun 4, 12:58 PM · #

20. Trust me, you haven’t missed out on much.

    Posted by: V · Jun 4, 01:04 PM · #

21. It’s simple, really

    Posted by: V · Jun 4, 01:10 PM · #

22. Bad sex is sort of like:

    A. Waddya wanna do?

    B. I dunno, whadda you wanna?

    A. I dunno.

    B. Well let’s do this thing where we just kinda do our own stuff, but together, and without any sort of energy or interest. And we’ll not really have any idea what’s going on.

    A. Okay.

    Four minutes later…

    B. Want anything? I’m headed to the kitchen.

    A. No thanks. Snore…

    Posted by: Carl · Jun 4, 01:31 PM · #

23. Hi (0v0)

    I hope to meet Tristana someday, she seems like a lovely lady. You’re on a roll with your analyses of ashtanga and culture/life/body.

    “Energetic thread is lost when posture takes over and movement stops.” Interesting thought. Today I was hoping Mr. Energy would come to town, but he didn’t. So if I just say to myself, “Buddha is coming, look busy” and keep the movement flow, then I’ll have the energy to do everything and a good flow to boot?

    I don’t think ashtanga makes the body feel fat. But if you get the body lighter, by the practice and by modesty in eating, ashtanga should be easier and one should feel better and stronger.

    The thing with dance is that overweight people can move gracefully and look good dancing, although they won’t impress as much as lithe dancers.

    Some ashtangis dance. I know a third series practitioner in SF that dances – for some people it’s the way to connect socially with others. Ahem. I should dance. But I don’t have the time.

    hugs
    Arturo

    Posted by: arturo · Jun 4, 06:56 PM · #

24. Hi Vanessa, is it possible to have an invitation to your blog, now that it’s private? I always have learned a lot from your observations on your practice. I’ll understand if you don’t want me to read. Hope you’re doing well. One of my emails is eyrie4981 at mypacks dot net.
    Cheers, Arturo

    Posted by: arturo · Jun 4, 07:00 PM · #

25. Uhm, never mind. Boy you have to visit the community of bloggers to find out bits and pieces. So (0v0), scuze me, just sending a message from your platform to V. – Vanessa, thanks for inspiring me with your writing about your practice in your blog. I learned a lot from you. Best wishes.
    hugs
    Arturo

    Posted by: arturo · Jun 4, 07:22 PM · #

26. Owl! The Stones, that song! It’s just past 10 am and I’m having a post-practice coffee, reading what went on in the comments boxes of ashtanga-land while I was sleeping. Then I follow that link and YES YES YES! Do you know what? I started dancing in my chair.

    I’m laughing at Carl’s representation in dialog of Bad Sex. Yes, exactly! I wonder if sex with Mick would be awful. No… it can still be good with those people, but you need to be a good Follow. A really good Follow to their Lead, always listening and looking for the clues they don’t even know they’re giving about what’s going to happen next, which can be exhausting or thrilling. Depending on how worth it the other person’s moves are.

    Posted by: joy · Jun 5, 12:44 AM · #

27. Mick does seem to have amazing bandhas. (Though methinks the ashtangi figure he cuts is in the cocaine, like his fathers Iggy and Bowie and his sons Stephen and the rest.)

    For Following… great technique, but maybe a canned performance.

    Sorry to objectify you like that Mick. You started it, man.

    Aaaaauuuuuummmmm. Off to practice.

    Posted by: (0v0) · Jun 5, 04:29 AM · #

28. I’m offended.
    No, seriously.
    Why this fat thing?
    You are talking only about non professional dancers here right? Because the “real” ones are just as obsessive about their weight as a lot of ashtangis seem to be. Ever hear of a non anorexic ballerina?

    Could the difference be that dance gets you right into your soul. Music, dance they have been around longer than the practice of yoga. Look at the whirling dervishes. It’s in our souls to have an ecstatic spiritual musical freak out. Were still doing it all over the world. Maybe it doesn’t matter to the person who’s doing if they’re fat or not because they are actually more connected to the universal consciousness at that momnet than those who do a very structured and precise yoga practice. Maybe they found the path to the source….

    Posted by: Susan · Jun 6, 06:27 AM · #

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